Thomas II

Where exactly within ourselves is the "kingdom of God"?

motorhead

Big deal, check out the numerous other verses where Jesus predicts the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God.

Malachi151

Of course you know that there is ZERO evidence for this at all, you're just making stuff up here.

There was no Jesus that has anything to do with the Christian story at all.

As you say, the Christ Jesus of Paul was a divine mystery religion figure, and the Jesus of Mark was an allegorical figure used to make a point about the destruction of Israel.

Jesus is 100% made up, based on "Old Testament" ideas and scriptures. There isn't one single thing written by ANY person about a "real live" Jesus. There was no Jesus at all.

xaxxat

Who is Jesus?

A designer god - you can bend him, twist him, shape him into anything you want. One of the current favorites is the prosperity model. Jesus wants you to be rich...

EarlOfLade

A dud that makes christians feel good when he is nailed to a cross... Go figure...

Dean Anderson

Then who wrote the very Cynic like 'Q' sayings?

Someone must have written them - and this person (and as I said above, it may have been a whole group of people rather than a single leader - but people like to attribute things to a single founder) is as close to an historical Jesus as we will get.

His actual name is unknown to us - so 'Jesus' is as good a name as any, since that is the name that the surviving material incorporated into the Gospels uses for him.

Many of the NT ideas have a much more Hellenic base than an OT base - and much of this comes from 'Q' - the sayings of which had a very human author.

Of course, the biography given to this originator of the sayings by the Gospels is complete fiction - and we know nothing about his actual life. That doesn't mean that there was no originator or originators, though.

Malachi151

There are no Q sayings. "Q" is theoretical, and has never been found or indicated to exist.

Maybe you are talking about the Gospel of Thomas? Yeah, that was written by someone of course, but its just some sayings, it doesn't mean that whoever wrote that was gallivanting around with a following, or that they were crucified, etc.

I also wouldn't say that the gospels are more Hellenistic than Jewish. Virtually 100% of Mark, the first gospel, is direct quotes and paraphrases from what we call the Old Testament. I call it a Jewish story written in Greek format. Who Jesus is, and almost everything that he says and does in Mark comes from the OT.

Some also, BTW, have suggested that the theoretical "Q" was really a Buddhist text, which are known to have been in the area in Greek form at this time.

Dean Anderson

Whether or not they existed as a written document (and I think the textual evidence that they did is quite persuasive), the sayings definitely exist - and were definitely written by someone.

Both that and the Matthew/Luke material not found in Mark.

I never said anything about anyone being crucified - but whoever wrote it obviously had enough of a following for it to be recorded for posterity and incorporated into the Christian Gospels.

I agree. The Gospels seem to take OT stories and verses and cast them into a more Hellenistic worldview borrowed from Paul. The material is Jewish, but the format is Greek.

From what I've seen, there seems to be some cross-pollination between Buddhism and Stoic/Cynic philosophy. However, I haven't looked at this in any depth, so I wouldn't want to over-egg the significance of any similarities.

Alethias

Much as I find it interesting, discussions of 'Q' (unless they are about Star Trek: TNG) and the relevance of ancient Buddhist texts to the development of the NT are straying into an Abrahamic Texts: Criticism & History Topic.

I'm moving this to the appropriate forum

Alethias,
GRD Moderator

Chili

Jesus was the name given to the person unto whom the messiah (later called Christ) was born. This would be Joseph the Jew now reborn and called Jesus.