Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rational BAC · 01-31-2004, 05:51 AM

Ronin--

OK----

Drop the "necessarily" part then.

I really did not mean to infer that the existence of Gods was meant to be a necessary result of this particular thread.

Really more curious about the mystical part.

Rational BAC · 01-31-2004, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OrbitV2
RBAC,

Is this an attempt to somehow justify your belief in fairytales? If even atheists have supernatural experiences then they must be real, right?

The human mind is strange device. It can decieve and trick us. When something we can't explain occurs it will fill in the gaps for us since it cannot tolerate a vacume.

To date there is no evidence of anything supernatural, paranormal, mystical or ghostly to have ev er occurred. There is of course an abundance of anecdotes and stories, such as you are seeking here.

However, an atheist/skeptic board is an unusual the place to seek such anecdotes. I suspect you would have much better luck finding such tales and gossip from a theist board, where reality isn't so important to the members.

Good luck

The only thing I wanted to determine by this thread is how many atheists and agnostics had similar experiences (or lack of experiences if you will) to mine when I was an agnostic.

Just trying to learn something.

No sneaky motives at all.

And I don't see how I would find out about atheist experiences on a theist forum. Do you?

asgardhaven · 01-31-2004, 06:04 AM

It's not weird but the most powerful experience I've ever had (awe inspiring, humbling, and all the other things that go along with religous experience) was the birth of my son.

Yes its easy to know ahead of time that's its all a biological process that's been finetuned by the process of selection, but all that goes out the window and the feeling if not concept of "miracle" quickly fills your head. Its a powerfully strong onrush of emotion that's hard to rein in with the intellect at the time.

It ultimately didn't change anything but I could see where that sort of experience could make you more succeptible to emotionally vs. rational appeals.

Hedshaker · 01-31-2004, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC

And I don't see how I would find out about atheist experiences on a theist forum. Do you?

The point is, atheists do not believe in the supernatural, there is no such thing. Try going to the TOL board and asking them why they don't believe in gods and angels and never experienced paranormal and supernatural stuff.

You OP is moot here.

If you had asked for Unexplainable experiences that would have been another matter. But here's the cruncher for you.......(read my words) There is no such thing as the supernatural

SAVVY?

Sarpedon · 01-31-2004, 06:19 AM

First, I note that Rational BAC has not shared with us what this mystical experience of his/hers was.

Second, many of the traditional "mystical experiences" have been thouroughly explained away through science. For example:

Every mystical tradition has a practice called "fasting" where the mystic abstains from food and sometimes water and sleep for extended periods of time. This, of course produces "visions." Now, scientists have found that abstaining from such necessary things has been known to produce hallucinations in people. The effect is similar to being on drugs. Indeed, several mystical groups, including the Navaho ancestor cult, the hashishans, and certain hindu sects, consume drugs in order to produce visions. It has been theorized that J.C. and the boys were members of such a cult.

A recent article I found on sciencedaily.com posited that inaudible tones of sound can produce feelings of awe, fear, or uneasiness in humans, even though their concious minds does not recognize it as a sound. What commonly found religious instrument can produce such sounds? Pipe organs. Perhaps also those weird, long trumpets used by Tantric Buddhists, as well.

Hypnotism is also commonly used in religious rituals. Rythmic music, droning speech, repetition, and body motions can produce in susceptible people a change in brain state. Not incidently, these are all hallmarks of religious rituals.

It is easy, then, for the informed person to explain any perceived supernatural event in a naturalistic way. The Evil One probably simply fell asleep and had a dream, that warm summer morning. I have had dreams that featured supernatural entities. One of the more interesting ones was the one where the man was afraid of leaving his house because he was afraid of being seen by "the Watching Being," who lived inside the sun, and could see everything that the sun's rays touched. This being was also quite malevolent, and had it in for this guy because he was the only one who was aware of it, as the guy had a highly developed sixth sense which gave him the feeling of being watched. The dream ended with the watching being somehow discovering the man, and signalling his knowledge by magically erecting a large pyramid shape in his yard, with a whole in the center, marked by an eye. Other dreams I have had feature little people, immortals, vampires, demon-possessed animals, zombies etc, and I take none of them to be anything than elaborations on things I see in movies, read about in books, and imagine within my own mind. I have seen nothing within the world to make me think there are supernatural agencies at work. I have noted from time to time that I seem to be lucky, but I also can think of times where I have been quite unlucky. There is no reason to think that these are anything more than random factors at work.

Whenever I see anything amazing, the first thing I do is look for the man behind the curtain.

Rational BAC · 01-31-2004, 06:28 AM

I don't plan to share any of my personal experiences. As stated before ---no one has to if they don't want to for whatever reason.

If all you want to say is that some strange and very difficult to explain occurrences have happened to you in your lifetime and you do not want to go into detail ----fine with me.

If you could explain how you justified those experiences rationally, that would be nice.

Rational BAC · 01-31-2004, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OrbitV2
The point is, atheists do not believe in the supernatural, there is no such thing. Try going to the TOL board and asking them why they don't believe in gods and angels and never experienced paranormal and supernatural stuff.

You OP is moot here.

If you had asked for Unexplainable experiences that would have been another matter. But here's the cruncher for you.......(read my words) There is no such thing as the supernatural

SAVVY?

I am easy Orbit--

Change "supernatural" to "unexplainable experiences".

I have no problem with that.

I have no problem with the mods changing the subject of this thread to read "unexplainable experiences" if it makes you feel better about it.

Trouble is-----I don't know how to change the subject of this thread. I think only a mod can. I also would like to turn this into a poll format to get more input from lurkers. I can't do that by myself either.

So----so far we are stuck with what we got.

Rational BAC · 01-31-2004, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Evil One
It was early one morning. I was in a kind of trance state - not quite awake, not quite asleep. Suddenly I had the impression that I was walking through a garden on a steep hill to a house, and that at the centre of the house was a ruined temple. I knew that it was the temple of the Sun Goddess. When I stepped into the circle of the ruined temple and looked up at the sky I saw the sun. But it wasn't like when you look at the sun normally - I was able to keep my eyes open and the radiance filled my entire field of vision, and I was overcome with a sense of awe and an overwhelming sense of peace and fierce joy. The vision gradually faded out - in a way completely different to how you wake up form a dream - though the profound feeling of spiritual connection lingered for several hours.

After that experience, I understood what religionists feel like when they have spiritual experiences. I understood, moreover, that if I was a member of a religion, I would have interpreted my experience as a vision of Christ / Brahman / The Great Mother / Allah / whoever. But reason suggests that a far more parsimonious explanation is a temporary glitch in my wetware. I apply that explanation to the religious experiences of others, so to be consistent I must obviously apply it to my own.

Religious experiences aren't evidence for god... even my own religious experience.

Amazing that you didn't go blind from that experience. How long did you look at the sun? -----would, in your judgement, it have been long enough to hurt your eyes normally?

(Possibly I have misinterpreted your post and you did not look directly at the sun)

And was it possibly a dream? In your opinion?

Most of us can easily distinguish between dreams and reality so I disagree on that point with Sarpedon.

The Evil One · 01-31-2004, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Amazing that you didn't go blind from that experience. How long did you look at the sun? -----would, in your judgement, it have been long enough to hurt your eyes normally?

(Possibly I have misinterpreted your post and you did not look directly at the sun)

I didn't look directly at the sun. I had a vision in which I was looking directly at the sun. Since it was all inside my head, no eye damage was involved. But my brain is a good faker so there was no way, at the time, to tell that I was not really looking at the sun.

Rational BAC · 01-31-2004, 07:15 AM

Sorry --

We cross posted on my last edit.

Do you consider a "vision" to be about the same as a dream? Did you think you were awake and conscious at the time?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-31-2004, 05:51 AM	#11
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Ronin-- OK---- Drop the "necessarily" part then. I really did not mean to infer that the existence of Gods was meant to be a necessary result of this particular thread. Really more curious about the mystical part.

01-31-2004, 06:04 AM	#13
asgardhaven Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN USA Posts: 129	It's not weird but the most powerful experience I've ever had (awe inspiring, humbling, and all the other things that go along with religous experience) was the birth of my son. Yes its easy to know ahead of time that's its all a biological process that's been finetuned by the process of selection, but all that goes out the window and the feeling if not concept of "miracle" quickly fills your head. Its a powerfully strong onrush of emotion that's hard to rein in with the intellect at the time. It ultimately didn't change anything but I could see where that sort of experience could make you more succeptible to emotionally vs. rational appeals.

01-31-2004, 06:19 AM	#15
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	First, I note that Rational BAC has not shared with us what this mystical experience of his/hers was. Second, many of the traditional "mystical experiences" have been thouroughly explained away through science. For example: Every mystical tradition has a practice called "fasting" where the mystic abstains from food and sometimes water and sleep for extended periods of time. This, of course produces "visions." Now, scientists have found that abstaining from such necessary things has been known to produce hallucinations in people. The effect is similar to being on drugs. Indeed, several mystical groups, including the Navaho ancestor cult, the hashishans, and certain hindu sects, consume drugs in order to produce visions. It has been theorized that J.C. and the boys were members of such a cult. A recent article I found on sciencedaily.com posited that inaudible tones of sound can produce feelings of awe, fear, or uneasiness in humans, even though their concious minds does not recognize it as a sound. What commonly found religious instrument can produce such sounds? Pipe organs. Perhaps also those weird, long trumpets used by Tantric Buddhists, as well. Hypnotism is also commonly used in religious rituals. Rythmic music, droning speech, repetition, and body motions can produce in susceptible people a change in brain state. Not incidently, these are all hallmarks of religious rituals. It is easy, then, for the informed person to explain any perceived supernatural event in a naturalistic way. The Evil One probably simply fell asleep and had a dream, that warm summer morning. I have had dreams that featured supernatural entities. One of the more interesting ones was the one where the man was afraid of leaving his house because he was afraid of being seen by "the Watching Being," who lived inside the sun, and could see everything that the sun's rays touched. This being was also quite malevolent, and had it in for this guy because he was the only one who was aware of it, as the guy had a highly developed sixth sense which gave him the feeling of being watched. The dream ended with the watching being somehow discovering the man, and signalling his knowledge by magically erecting a large pyramid shape in his yard, with a whole in the center, marked by an eye. Other dreams I have had feature little people, immortals, vampires, demon-possessed animals, zombies etc, and I take none of them to be anything than elaborations on things I see in movies, read about in books, and imagine within my own mind. I have seen nothing within the world to make me think there are supernatural agencies at work. I have noted from time to time that I seem to be lucky, but I also can think of times where I have been quite unlucky. There is no reason to think that these are anything more than random factors at work. Whenever I see anything amazing, the first thing I do is look for the man behind the curtain.

01-31-2004, 06:28 AM	#16
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	I don't plan to share any of my personal experiences. As stated before ---no one has to if they don't want to for whatever reason. If all you want to say is that some strange and very difficult to explain occurrences have happened to you in your lifetime and you do not want to go into detail ----fine with me. If you could explain how you justified those experiences rationally, that would be nice.

01-31-2004, 07:15 AM	#20
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Sorry -- We cross posted on my last edit. Do you consider a "vision" to be about the same as a dream? Did you think you were awake and conscious at the time?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.