Sheshbazzar

There it is. But the big question is of just when? and of how? it got there.
In other words, original and genuine or, not?

I think not.

mountainman

Who do we have to thank for the thoughtful preservation of Irenaeus, and his valuable heresiological services devoted to the history of the "Early Church"? The criminal database just turned up the name of Big E., a very successful editor-in-chief of Codices.

Sheshbazzar

I have no idea what you are talking about.........:lalala:

aa5874

You are promoting STRAWMAN arguments.

You very well know that the 2000 word argument of "Against Heresies" did NOT state at all that Jesus died very early in the reign of Claudius.

Please, This is an EXTREMELY serious matter. Crimes against Humanity was carried out by the Church.

1. The birth of Jesus in "Against Heresies" is LOCKED at 1 BCE-1 CE.

"Against Heresies" 2.22 4. "Against Heresies" 3.14.3 2. The crucifixion of Jesus is LOCKED to the reign of Claudius.

"Against Heresies" 2.22 3. In Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings the crucifixion is LOCKED BEFORE the reign of Claudius.

2 Cor.11.32-33Acts 9. 4. The post resurrection Ascension of Jesus in Acts is LOCKED to BEFORE the reign of Claudius. based on Acts 9 .25 and 2 Cor 11.32-33.

5. The DAY of Pentecost is LOCKED to BEFORE the reign of Claudius. based on Acts 9 .25 and 2 Cor 11.32-33.

6. The Preaching of Christ CRUCIFIED by Peter is LOCKED to BEFORE the reign of Claudius. based on Acts 9 .25 and 2 Cor 11.32-33.

7. The STONING of Sephen is LOCKED to BEFORE the reign of Claudius. based on Acts 9 .25 and 2 Cor 11.32-33.

8. The persecution by Paul is LOCKED to BEFORE the reign of Claudius. based on Acts 9 .25 and 2 Cor 11.32-33.


9. The Bright light conversion of Paul is LOCKED to BEFORE the reign of Claudius.

10. The Preaching of Christ Crucified by Paul in Damascus is LOCKED to BEFORE the reign of Claudius. based on Acts 9 .25 and 2 Cor 11.32-33.

"Against Heresies" is a compilation of Fraud, Fiction and Forgeries with Multiple AUTHORS and Acts of the Apostles, Paul and the Pauline writings were UNKNOWN up to the mid 2nd century.

andrewcriddle

Irenaeus probably did not know that Aretas died in 40 CE. (This is prima-facie very likely, it was hardly everyday information in 180 CE)

What is interesting is that Irenaeus does not seem to have read Josephus, otherwise he would have known that Pilate lost his job at the end of the reign of Tiberius. This is relevant to issues about knowledge of Josephus and the TF by 2nd century Christian writers.

Andrew Criddle

tanya

I appreciate this message, Andrew, thank you.

My concern here, perhaps alone among forum participants, is that someone could point to the texts attributed to Irenaeus, to address, or resolve, a third party issue, when his text, itself, is controversial.

Can one reasonably harvest fruit from a substantially contaminated source to compare, pro or con, with something one believes to be uncontaminated?

Can we use Irenaeus' writings to evaluate the merits of Tertullian's invective against Marcion?

aa5874

Those SILLY excuses will no longer work. This is a serious case of FRAUD, FORGERIES and FICTION by the Church.

You are promoting the MOST absurd notion that ALL the 2nd century HERETICS who read the 2000 word argument in 'AH' 2.22 also did NOT of Josephus.

A writing attributed to Justin Martyr, c 150 CE, show that Justin was AWARE of Josephus.

"Hortatory Address to the Greeks.... And further, the author of the 2000 word argument that Jesus was crucified at about 50 years does NOT need to read Josephus when he ESTABLISHED, using gLuke, that his Jesus was about 30 years old in the 15th year of Tiberius and that it was JOHN the disciple and the Other Apostles who CONVEYED that Jesus was about fifty years old when he was crucified.

So far, you have UTTERLY FAILED to address the facts of the 2000 word argument that it is claimed that JOHN, the ELDERS and the Other Apostles did CONVEY to people in Asia that Jesus was about 50 years old.

Josephus writings are IRRELEVANT.

Deal with JOHN, the disciple, the ELDERS and the Other Apostles in the 2000 word argument that Jesus was about 50 years old when he was crucified.

You are wasting my time with STRAWMAN arguments.

andrewcriddle

This work is probably substantially later than Justin.
Irenaeus appears to have believed in a long duration of Jesus' ministry maybe 12 years. IE he was baptized at 30 and killed at over 40.

Andrew Criddle

Solo

Hi Andrew,
Irenaeus apparently knew Josephus' Antiquities. See 'fragment 32'. This appears to refer to Ant. 2.238-253. We are still left with a mystery. Did Irenaeus conviction about Jesus' age originate in John 8:57 ?

Best,
Jiri

andrewcriddle

Hi Jiri

This fragment comes from a catena, a collection of extracts attributed to various early Christians. Irenaeus' apparent belief that Pilate was governor under Claudius increases ones doubts about the accuracy of the attribution to Irenaeus of this passage by the compiler of the catena.

Andrew Criddle