Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Coleslaw · 11-07-2007, 07:30 PM

Dave probably thinks the discussion is done and that he won the argument, as he thinks he has won so many others, for reasons none of the rest of us can fathom.

Minimalist · 11-07-2007, 08:47 PM

Ah! The Darius III Syndrome.

Johnny Skeptic · 11-07-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coleslaw

Dave probably thinks the discussion is done and that he won the argument, as he thinks he has won so many others, for reasons none of the rest of us can fathom.

Oh I know what the reason is. The reason is inerrancy. One Scripture basically says "Let every man be a liar, but let God be true." With a predisposition like that, science does not have a chance.

At the Evolution/Creation Forum, I told Lee Merrill:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

I would sure like to know how Lee Merrill accounts for the fact that evolutionists who have Ph.D.'s in biology or biochemistry usually make accurate conclusions except when their conclusions do not agree with the Bible. Whatever the correct answer is, it cannot possibly have anything to do with the lack of intelligence, the lack of education, and the lack of an ability to understand biology. From a Christian perspective, the answer has to be a theological answer, in which case Lee is trying to use scientific arguments in order to settle theological issues, which simply cannot work, or he is preaching to the choir, who just so happen to already believe in intelligent design. I wonder which is the case.

Dave has always refused to answer the following question: In your opinion, are evangelical Christians who believe that the earth is old saved?

Dave knows that if he answers "yes," I will say that it does not matter whether or not anyone believes that the earth is young, and that if he answers "no," he would have to take on an angry horde of evangelical Christians who believe that the earth is old, and provide Biblical evidence that the Bible requires all Christians to be inerrantists.

Pappy Jack · 11-08-2007, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Jack,

You may find this inscription from the tomb of Ahmose, son of Ebana..... This man, who served under Ahmose I tells of the siege of Avaris.

http://ib205.tripod.com/ahmose_ebana.html

Quote:

When the town of Avaris was besieged, I fought bravely on foot in his majesty's presence.

One would expect a graveyard to be filled with young males who died defending the town from a protracted siege.....

Interesting and informative links, Minimalist, thanks.

So the conclusion that can be drawn is that Dave's citing of the Avaris mass burials as evidence of one of the ten plagues is, shall we say, unconvincing at the very least?

Pappy Jack · 11-08-2007, 02:26 AM

We the come to Dave's citing of Mentho's remark that, in the reign of Dudimose, 'a blast of God' struck the Egyptians. I have questioned Dave about this before (most recently here) on the several occasions that he has referenced it, but he has yet to respond.

The points I put were as follows:

Egypt was a society with a deep-rooted belief in magic and the power of the gods. How many other pharaohs' reigns saw 'blasts of (the) god(s)' or other supernatural events recorded? If none, Manetho's observation may have some value; if many, then precious little. And are we certain that these are Manetho's own words rather than an interpolation by a later writer seeking to reinforce Biblical 'truth'? This is a pertinent question as Manetho's original work is lost and preserved only in fragmentary translations by Josephus (70 AD), Africanus (early 3rd century AD), Eusebius (early 4th century AD) and Syncellus (800 AD).

I am particularly interested in the attribution of Manetho's 'blast of god' as none of the copies we have of Manetho's work is original. I believe that Rohl uses Jospehus, but Josephus's writings are widely known for the interpolations into his work of anachronistic xtian 'proofs' by later xtian editors. Again, does anyone have any further information?

Lucretius · 11-08-2007, 02:48 AM

Just a few further thoughts(or perhaps re-iterations) as this thread hasn't quite died yet.
Even if Dave can come up with an invasion ,how then would this completely "naturalistic " event prove anything in any case ?
Are we to assume that every invasion in the entire recorded history of the world is also "proof" of Divine intervention ?
On a similar note the fact that Manetho a "pagan" writer possibly wrote a line about 'a blast of God' does that in fact mean that every similar reference in any other mythology (The Greeks and Romans in particular being fond of such things) are equally "proof" of Divine intervention.
IF NOT why not ?
What makes these two things "special " in Daves world ?

Pappy Jack · 11-08-2007, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucretius

.....the fact that Manetho a "pagan" writer possibly wrote a line about 'a blast of God' does that in fact mean that every similar reference in any other mythology (The Greeks and Romans in particular being fond of such things) are equally "proof" of Divine intervention.
IF NOT why not ?.....

I've been asking Dave something similar since I first saw him quote this as evidence of biblical inerrancy over at, I think, RichardDawkins.net. The crickets are still chirping on this one......

Lucretius · 11-08-2007, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappy Jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucretius

.....the fact that Manetho a "pagan" writer possibly wrote a line about 'a blast of God' does that in fact mean that every similar reference in any other mythology (The Greeks and Romans in particular being fond of such things) are equally "proof" of Divine intervention.
IF NOT why not ?.....

I've been asking Dave something similar since I first saw him quote this as evidence of biblical inerrancy over at, I think, RichardDawkins.net. The crickets are still chirping on this one......

Well there's a surprise

Hope you aren't holding your breath in anticipation of an answer

l

Minimalist · 11-08-2007, 09:57 AM

Quote:

shall we say, unconvincing at the very least?

LOL. Yes. At the least.

Minimalist · 11-20-2007, 09:32 AM

Well, I noted that Dave was back on another thread so I figured I'd bump this up to remind him that we are all still waiting!

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11-07-2007, 07:30 PM	#351
Coleslaw Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The cornfield Posts: 555	Dave probably thinks the discussion is done and that he won the argument, as he thinks he has won so many others, for reasons none of the rest of us can fathom.

11-07-2007, 08:47 PM	#352
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Ah! The Darius III Syndrome.

11-08-2007, 02:26 AM	#355
Pappy Jack Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: French Pyrenees Posts: 649	We the come to Dave's citing of Mentho's remark that, in the reign of Dudimose, 'a blast of God' struck the Egyptians. I have questioned Dave about this before (most recently here) on the several occasions that he has referenced it, but he has yet to respond. The points I put were as follows: Egypt was a society with a deep-rooted belief in magic and the power of the gods. How many other pharaohs' reigns saw 'blasts of (the) god(s)' or other supernatural events recorded? If none, Manetho's observation may have some value; if many, then precious little. And are we certain that these are Manetho's own words rather than an interpolation by a later writer seeking to reinforce Biblical 'truth'? This is a pertinent question as Manetho's original work is lost and preserved only in fragmentary translations by Josephus (70 AD), Africanus (early 3rd century AD), Eusebius (early 4th century AD) and Syncellus (800 AD). I am particularly interested in the attribution of Manetho's 'blast of god' as none of the copies we have of Manetho's work is original. I believe that Rohl uses Jospehus, but Josephus's writings are widely known for the interpolations into his work of anachronistic xtian 'proofs' by later xtian editors. Again, does anyone have any further information?

11-08-2007, 02:48 AM	#356
Lucretius Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: . Posts: 1,014	Just a few further thoughts(or perhaps re-iterations) as this thread hasn't quite died yet. Even if Dave can come up with an invasion ,how then would this completely "naturalistic " event prove anything in any case ? Are we to assume that every invasion in the entire recorded history of the world is also "proof" of Divine intervention ? On a similar note the fact that Manetho a "pagan" writer possibly wrote a line about 'a blast of God' does that in fact mean that every similar reference in any other mythology (The Greeks and Romans in particular being fond of such things) are equally "proof" of Divine intervention. IF NOT why not ? What makes these two things "special " in Daves world ?

11-20-2007, 09:32 AM	#360
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Well, I noted that Dave was back on another thread so I figured I'd bump this up to remind him that we are all still waiting!

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