Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Transient · 02-04-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

I'm guessing the story is about conflicts between herders and farmers (possibly over use of land). Apparently the farmers were cursed by God (the God of the herders?) for some reason, decreeing that their efforts would not yield fruit whereas the children of the herders would always do well. Is this born out by history? The mark of Abel could be circumcision, but as far as I know there is no mark exclusively on farmers? Perhaps God made farmers more stupid than herders or something like that? Or less conservative at any rate.

The only partial consensus is that farmers get sunburnt because they have to spend more hours outdoors, so maybe the mark of Cain is just dark skin. It could also refer to having to work many more hours than herders, who just have to tend animals.

Since there is no curse on killing herders, I guess that's why some conflicts like Israel-Palestine are intractable, being fought between the cultural descendants of various herding populations. The violence is a gift by God. God made it and it was good. We should revel in it.

Actually, considering the conflict between the Tutsi (herders) and the Hutu (farmers) my guess is that herding permits a smaller population to survive at a better nutritional level. Whereas farmers are more numerous and have poorer nutrition. Maybe more fractious and less conservative cultures as well. So the mark of Cain could just be being physically puny.

People have always had ridiculous attitudes towards others.
Often cattlemen looked down on sheep farmers - maybe they thought because their cattle were a bit bigger and tougher that that made them so much greater - total rubbish and pathetic but it still persists.
I remember when I was going thru agricultural college 38 years ago I was more into horticulture but most of the rest were farmers sons and mainly into cattle and sheep and I had to ride out heaps of insults and wierd remarks at times.
Maybe back then there was this male dominating factor about herding and plant culture.

it is all ridiculous anyway because genesis clearly demonstrates that it is fiction designed to put a foundation under judaism to provide stability for a very down trodden race of people and to prop up the priestly class - not a bad life - 10% of the nations income and no work to do - sounds familiar - lazy public servants and churches.

semiopen · 02-04-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

I'm guessing the story is about conflicts between herders and farmers (possibly over use of land). Apparently the farmers were cursed by God (the God of the herders?) for some reason, decreeing that their efforts would not yield fruit whereas the children of the herders would always do well. Is this born out by history? The mark of Abel could be circumcision, but as far as I know there is no mark exclusively on farmers? Perhaps God made farmers more stupid than herders or something like that? Or less conservative at any rate.

The only partial consensus is that farmers get sunburnt because they have to spend more hours outdoors, so maybe the mark of Cain is just dark skin. It could also refer to having to work many more hours than herders, who just have to tend animals.

Since there is no curse on killing herders, I guess that's why some conflicts like Israel-Palestine are intractable, being fought between the cultural descendants of various herding populations. The violence is a gift by God. God made it and it was good. We should revel in it.

Actually, considering the conflict between the Tutsi (herders) and the Hutu (farmers) my guess is that herding permits a smaller population to survive at a better nutritional level. Whereas farmers are more numerous and have poorer nutrition. Maybe more fractious and less conservative cultures as well. So the mark of Cain could just be being physically puny.

The herder/farmers is interesting. Since all animals (including man) were vegetarians before the flood. Which is why the animals also were destroyed for having kinky sex. One question is what were the herders doing with the animals if not to eat them.

Actually, I just wanted to mention Lamech who according to talmudic legend killed Cain. This suggests he was blind, and he shot Cain with an arrow.

This is discussed in this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamech

This is not an easily comprehensible story.

Lamech's daughter Naamah may have been Noah's wife. This is a minority view, but why mention her name otherwise.

LoungeHead · 02-04-2009, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

In this case, there is no reason to believe that God, the owner/farmer, in the Garden of Eden story actually created Adam and Eve in the original story. The story works better if the farmer, merely ordered his son Adam to take care of the garden. Eve would have been the farmer's wife. That would explain their expulsion when found together.

You're kidding me?! Adam and Eve were tenant farmers?

That explains why Cain and Abel were giving up offerings. God changed the farming model from communal (Adam and Eve) to sharecropping (Cain and Abel). At least until that went awry.

semiopen · 02-04-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoungeHead

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

In this case, there is no reason to believe that God, the owner/farmer, in the Garden of Eden story actually created Adam and Eve in the original story. The story works better if the farmer, merely ordered his son Adam to take care of the garden. Eve would have been the farmer's wife. That would explain their expulsion when found together.

You're kidding me?! Adam and Eve were tenant farmers?

That explains why Cain and Abel were giving up offerings. God changed the farming model from communal (Adam and Eve) to sharecropping (Cain and Abel). At least until that went awry.

God taught people to farm, domesticated many animals (except for the camel?), showed us how to use fire, taught the first language (Hebrew). Kind of amazing that people who believe this literally are technically sane.

Transient · 02-04-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoungeHead

You're kidding me?! Adam and Eve were tenant farmers?

That explains why Cain and Abel were giving up offerings. God changed the farming model from communal (Adam and Eve) to sharecropping (Cain and Abel). At least until that went awry.

God taught people to farm, domesticated many animals (except for the camel?), showed us how to use fire, taught the first language (Hebrew). Kind of amazing that people who believe this literally are technically sane.

Yep and god also taught his people that the earth was not flat and that the earth revolved around the sun etc.
He taught them that slavery was not an option, that an eye for an eye was not good, taught them that infection was caused by micro-organisms etc etc.
He even says that he cares for us as much as he does the birds of the air - maybe that one is not so good - he might count them as they cark it but he sure as hell does nothing to stop them dying like flies in drought or predator attacks - oh wait, he designed the predators - hmm better rethink how nice he is I guess.
Maybe he even taught the hebrews calculus and modern physics.

QuestionMark · 02-04-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoungeHead

You're kidding me?! Adam and Eve were tenant farmers?

That explains why Cain and Abel were giving up offerings. God changed the farming model from communal (Adam and Eve) to sharecropping (Cain and Abel). At least until that went awry.

God taught people to farm, domesticated many animals (except for the camel?), showed us how to use fire, taught the first language (Hebrew). Kind of amazing that people who believe this literally are technically sane.

AFAIK Human were hunter gatherers until 12,000 years ago when farming was invented.

QM?

LoungeHead · 02-04-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

God taught people to farm, domesticated many animals (except for the camel?), showed us how to use fire, taught the first language (Hebrew). Kind of amazing that people who believe this literally are technically sane.

Insanity is not based on a persons level of delusion. It is based on the persons ability to function in society whilst being delusional.

As for the exception of of camels in animal domestician, I believe God kept the camel forever wild as a sexual temptation.

Transient · 02-04-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoungeHead

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

God taught people to farm, domesticated many animals (except for the camel?), showed us how to use fire, taught the first language (Hebrew). Kind of amazing that people who believe this literally are technically sane.

Insanity is not based on a persons level of delusion. It is based on the persons ability to function in society whilst being delusional.

As for the exception of of camels in animal domestician, I believe God kept the camel forever wild as a sexual temptation.

Perhaps you would like to do an addition to Genesis for us - just a small one of maybe 200 words or so - we can pop it into one of the earlier chapters.
Just be make sure you think that god is guiding you and we are set.
Don't worry if you introduce a few exceptions - it's all good - helps to make it look honest, after all people would never think it wasn't good if there were some contradictions eh?

semiopen · 02-05-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuestionMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

God taught people to farm, domesticated many animals (except for the camel?), showed us how to use fire, taught the first language (Hebrew). Kind of amazing that people who believe this literally are technically sane.

AFAIK Human were hunter gatherers until 12,000 years ago when farming was invented.

QM?

Severely testing the limits of my knowledge, This guy seems to be knowledgeable in this area:

http://www.stevegagne.com/more.php?id=22_0_1_0_M

Joan of Bark · 02-05-2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Why is the speed of population growth relevant to this myth?

Because you have to show that there were going to be people around that would not have known what happened and might have otherwise killed him.
It would seem to me from reading genesis that there would not have been many people in the world at that stage to put it mildly.

That's why I wrote that there are problems with the chronology.

The apologetics argument is that Eve had more children, one of whom became Cain's wife and others of whom helped populate the world. Cain's potential killers would be people who had heard of his crime from oral stories and would need to be stopped from taking vengeance on the killer of their brother. As Eve lived for many centuries, she could have given birth to many children. (A ridiculous proposal, but we're taling mythology here, not the real world).

Or ... if you go by the premise that the first creation myth produced the gentiles while Adam and Eve were the progenitors of the Jews, then the gentiles would already be in the world and might kill Cain. (Although, to repeat myself, the flood eradicated the different 'races' anyway).

Again, this is mythology and few people today take it literally.

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