itsamysteryhuh

Our even being here (existing) and being able to do the things we can do seems logically impossible to me when you really think about it, yet here we are.

radagast

Really?

How?

itsamysteryhuh

1. Yes.
2. When you REALLY think about it.

radagast

I will assume that wasn't meant as the insult it appears.

Given I've spent 50 years thinking about it, that I discuss religion/philosophy with every religious person that comes to the front door, that I have the majority of major religious books in my library, having read all or a goodly portion of all of them, and have a fairly good scientific education, yes I do have to say I've given it some thought.

Since you seem to have ignored the HOW portion, I will make that more explicit:

Perhaps you would give your reasons.

If there are assumptions made, such as that universal constants were chosen by chance, please state these specifically. If you with to use statistics such that you compare a mechanism with a statistical probability with one that doesn't, please make that explicit, i.e. like in school, show your work...

Regards,
Glenn

IamMoose

Well then, it's not logically impossible not even improbable, really!

jonesg

I read the whole thing, I didn't want to post your whole quote again..but

I gotta tell you, that was impressive.
Its easy to see God is acting in you.

"When man listens, God speaks.
When man obeys, God acts".

jonesg

In 1938, there was a meeting attended by Bill Wilson (the founder of AA) and Mr Rockerfeller (yes, THE Rockerfeller).
Rockerfeller declared, after reading the manuscript of alcoholics annonymous "Why this is first century Christianity".
He decided to bankroll the publication of what has become one of the biggest spiritual movements ever after Christianity.

Now to the point,
Christianity, it seems, only really works when the 1st century version of it is embraced. AA certainly works and I have experienced and seen many a miracle there. Before that, I didn't think there was any God, I thought it was a myth concocted for self preservation.
As often happens, the opposite was true, my atheism was only good at preserving SELF and self never wanted anything good in my life.

Many a priest and nun has ended up at AA's doors and learned how to really pray, without Pride. I find God within, not in stained glass but I see his work and words everywhere as those who Obey Him bring His Will into manifestation.

radagast

I am happy AA worked for you. I have a good friend it also worked for, though she was and remains an atheist, the religious aspect was more an impediment than a help for her.

While your atheism was entirely self centered doesn't mean that's the case with others. A large segment of the Buddhist population has no belief in a god or gods, yet is not self-centered.

I am glad your religious beliefs work for you. I just want to be careful that we make a serious distinction between something that was personal to you (self-centeredness) and all atheists. If you believe this is a atheist characteristic, then that should be expressed explicitly, and it will be something I will contest. If this was just personal, then I can understand your statements in that context.

Glenn

IamMoose

I was surprised and rather dismayed when I learned - not from personal experience but whilst reading on the net - that AA has religious aspects to it. i don't know if those are followed in this country, but I do know that, if I ever had need of it, the idea that it is a theistic concept and programme would rather put me off.

IamMoose

Re statistics, I've always thought that using stats to prove or disprove anything is a risky business, and when it comes to religion it's a downright foolish business. I've heard too many Chrisitans say 'the world couldn't have come about by chance, the odds against it are (insert huge and meaningless number here) to one'. That's irrelevant. The second something happens, it doesn't matter what the odds against it were. It's happened, and that's that. I could never become convinced that there was a God using arguments like that (actually can't think of any arguments that would convince me but that's another story).