Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David B · 11-08-2007, 03:21 AM

I know that a lot of experts in ancient texts inhabit this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholas Humphrey

Lucian, a Roman born in Syria, writing in the 2nd century AD, catalogued the range of phenomena that the 'charlatans' and 'tricksters' could lay on. They included wlking on water, materialisation and dematerialisation, clairvoyance, expulsion of demons and prophesy. And he went on to explain how many of these feats were acheived by normal means. Hippolytus, too, exposed several 'pseudo miracle workers' who had powers uncannily similar to those of Jesus, including a certain Marcus who had mastered the art of turning the water in a cup red by mixing liquid from another cup while the onlookers' attention was distracted.

He continues

Quote:

so close were the similarities between Jesus' works and those of common, lower-class magicians that several Jewish and pagan commentators of the time simply took it for granted there was little except style and zeal to distinguish Jesus from the others...

I'd be very interested to see what our resident experts on ancient literature make of these quotes.

David B

Bethany · 11-08-2007, 03:24 AM

What book/article is that quotation from? Sounds like an interesting read.

David B · 11-08-2007, 03:30 AM

It's hard to get hold of now, being out of print.

I find it interesting.

'Soul Searching'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Humphrey

David B

Joan of Bark · 11-08-2007, 04:29 AM

In The Historical Figure of Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) by E.P. Sanders a similar claim is made. Miracle workers, faith healers and prophets with supernatural powers were far from unknown in first century Palestine.

Malachi151 · 11-08-2007, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

I know that a lot of experts in ancient texts inhabit this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholas Humphrey

Lucian, a Roman born in Syria, writing in the 2nd century AD, catalogued the range of phenomena that the 'charlatans' and 'tricksters' could lay on. They included wlking on water, materialisation and dematerialisation, clairvoyance, expulsion of demons and prophesy. And he went on to explain how many of these feats were acheived by normal means. Hippolytus, too, exposed several 'pseudo miracle workers' who had powers uncannily similar to those of Jesus, including a certain Marcus who had mastered the art of turning the water in a cup red by mixing liquid from another cup while the onlookers' attention was distracted.

He continues

Quote:

so close were the similarities between Jesus' works and those of common, lower-class magicians that several Jewish and pagan commentators of the time simply took it for granted there was little except style and zeal to distinguish Jesus from the others...

I'd be very interested to see what our resident experts on ancient literature make of these quotes.

David B

I have serious doubts about the "walking on water" claim.

The "walking on water" scene in the Gospels isn't portrayed as some kind of trick anyway, its simply part of a heroic narrative.

This is what I can't understand, why are people so attached to the idea that they need to explain how everything mentioned in the Bible "really happened", instead of realizing that these are simply fictional story elements in the first place?

Its not that "Jesus used a trick to walk on water", its that none of this ever happened at all, the writer simply made it up.

By trying to come up with an explanation for every scene in the Gospels, and claim that other people did all of this too, it seems very much that this guy is simply stretching the facts.

Do people try to explain how it is that Zeus transformed into a swan? No.

Magdlyn · 11-08-2007, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

By trying to come up with an explanation for every scene in the Gospels, and claim that other people did all of this too, it seems very much that this guy is simply stretching the facts.

I don't get that. I think we are seeing that the Jesus as presented in the gospels was just the author's favorite "real" magician. After all, Moses had a magic contest with the Egyptian priests as well. And Jesus was written to have spent his childhood in Egypt.

David B · 11-08-2007, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

I know that a lot of experts in ancient texts inhabit this forum.

He continues

I'd be very interested to see what our resident experts on ancient literature make of these quotes.

David B

I have serious doubts about the "walking on water" claim.

The "walking on water" scene in the Gospels isn't portrayed as some kind of trick anyway, its simply part of a heroic narrative.

This is what I can't understand, why are people so attached to the idea that they need to explain how everything mentioned in the Bible "really happened", instead of realizing that these are simply fictional story elements in the first place?

Its not that "Jesus used a trick to walk on water", its that none of this ever happened at all, the writer simply made it up.

By trying to come up with an explanation for every scene in the Gospels, and claim that other people did all of this too, it seems very much that this guy is simply stretching the facts.

Do people try to explain how it is that Zeus transformed into a swan? No.

Humphrey, in his book, presents this as a 'what if?' scenario, and does point out that whether the alleged events really happened is doubtful.

David B

Malachi151 · 11-08-2007, 05:14 AM

That's somewhat more understandable then, but I'd like to see what he claims is the evidence that people were performing "walking on water" tricks.

This also bring up another side point about the "walking on water" scene. Why is it that every time Jesus walking on water is portrayed in media, at least that I have seen, it is never depicted like it is in the Gospels, its always simply Jesus holding out his hands walking slowly across a calm pond or something?

I mean, in the story he swoops down off a mountain top and runs across a rough lake and gets into a boat, I've never seen that type of depiction in any media, though maybe I just don't see enough Jesus scenes....

David B · 11-08-2007, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

That's somewhat more understandable then, but I'd like to see what he claims is the evidence that people were performing "walking on water" tricks....

Yes, that's what I was rather hoping the OP would produce.

If any of the experts in old texts here are familiar with Lucian.

David B

Ruhan · 11-08-2007, 05:32 AM

One possible answer is that just as Moses was shown to have superior powers to that of the Egyptian magicians, the gospel writers tried to show that Jesus was superior to both the existing magicians as well as the various deities doing the rounds.

Everything they could do he could do better.

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11-08-2007, 03:24 AM	#2
Bethany Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland Posts: 44	What book/article is that quotation from? Sounds like an interesting read.

11-08-2007, 03:30 AM	#3
David B Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wales Posts: 11,620	It's hard to get hold of now, being out of print. I find it interesting. 'Soul Searching' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Humphrey David B

11-08-2007, 04:29 AM	#4
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	In The Historical Figure of Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) by E.P. Sanders a similar claim is made. Miracle workers, faith healers and prophets with supernatural powers were far from unknown in first century Palestine.

11-08-2007, 05:14 AM	#8
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	That's somewhat more understandable then, but I'd like to see what he claims is the evidence that people were performing "walking on water" tricks. This also bring up another side point about the "walking on water" scene. Why is it that every time Jesus walking on water is portrayed in media, at least that I have seen, it is never depicted like it is in the Gospels, its always simply Jesus holding out his hands walking slowly across a calm pond or something? I mean, in the story he swoops down off a mountain top and runs across a rough lake and gets into a boat, I've never seen that type of depiction in any media, though maybe I just don't see enough Jesus scenes....

11-08-2007, 05:32 AM	#10
Ruhan Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London Posts: 176	One possible answer is that just as Moses was shown to have superior powers to that of the Egyptian magicians, the gospel writers tried to show that Jesus was superior to both the existing magicians as well as the various deities doing the rounds. Everything they could do he could do better.

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