Larkin31

Were you waiting for my answer? I live in the east and went to bed.

I can't tell the level of sincerity from these fragments, really. True believers come in all levels of sophistication, no? If I had to guess, and if these were written with the other texts actually present (not simply passed orally to the community), then I would say that they are more a creative interpretation rather than a literal writing of what might have been said and done. But in answering this I am taking my modern sensibility and projecting it backwards 2000 years, so I offer this opinion with several caveats.

But it is an interesting stylistic set of fragments, for sure.

What is your take?

aa5874

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

As I have said before after examining the NT and Church writings it would appear that Jesus, the Ghost of God, was invented from Hebrew Scripture, the Septuagint, the writings of Josephus or some similar sources.

There are no credible historical sources to show that the invention of Jesus, the Ghost of God, is based on any single specific historical figure.

These are the fundamental elements of the Ghost of God and likely sources.

1. The conception----Isaiah 7.14.

2. His place of birth......Micah 5.2.

3. John the Baptist.....Antiquities of the Jews 18

4. The places where Jesus preached....the works of Flavius Josephus.

5. The miracles of Jesus with spit and touch......Suetonius "Life of Vespasian".

6. The trial of Jesus......Wars of the Jews 6 and Psalms 22.

7. The crucifixion......Psalms 22 and the Life of Flavius Josephus.

8. The resurrection......the book of Jonah and Wars of the Jews 2

9. The ascension.....2 Kings 2.

The Jesus of the NT was likely to have been invented from Hebrew Scripture, the Septuagint, the works of Flavius Josephus, Suetonius or similar sources and traditional beliefs about Gods.


The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition since there are historical sources to show that Jesus was most likely to have been invented from written sources of antiquity rather than from a specific individual of whom there is no history or specificity.

Loomis

Well, it wasn’t written by Noah – even though parts were written from the first-person perspective of Noah. And it wasn’t written by Abraham – even though parts were written from the first-person perspective of Abraham. I don't think it was part of a conspiracy. I don't think the real author was a liar, and I don't think he was trying to trick anyone. I think it was written as fiction and I think the author expected his readers to recognize that it was fiction.

Like Spiderman or Lassie. :bulb:

I brought it to your attention because it introduces a third possibility to something you said about 'best explanations' and 'conspiracies':
I know that deep in your heart you are confident that you are a decent clear-thinking person, and you must certainly feel that you are somehow on a level playing field with the rest of us; but nevertheless you either lack the imagination and mental facilities needed to consider the possibility that Jesus might be fiction sans any elaborate conspiracy, or else you are simply ignoring that posibility.

To answer your post; the possibility that a group of folks met Jesus and concluded that he was divine and exaggerated his powers is not the best explanation even though it might be really, really simple. A better explanation is that someone like Mark wrote a story about Joshua/ Jesus in the wild-and-woolly style of the Genesis Apocryphon and eventually it snowballed and church leaders exploited it. It’s a better explanation because it doesn’t require a conspiracy; it doesn’t require Gods, it provides a motive for writing the earliest stories, and it explains many of the details of Jesus life. (Most details are barrowed from the OT.)
Why is sincerity such a burning issue?

Why are you so preoccupied with it?

Were the authors of Spiderman or Lassie insincere?

Were they acting in bad faith?

Were they trying to trick us?
No. Jesus said true believers would drive out demons, speak in tongues, play with snakes, drink poison, and heal sick people just by touching them. True believers require that degree of sophistication. Jesus said so - and it’s not my problem if there aren’t any. What we have are not a bunch of true believers; what we have are a bunch of sick misguided adults who are not significantly different from other mentally ill people; such as those who claim that eating bunny poo will give us eternal life, and then insult us for pointing out that they are ridiculous.

Loomis

Gosh, do you really think so?

aa5874

I am not writing about the veracity of the crucifixion only where it is likely that events surrounding the crucifixion were derived.

For example, the final words of Jesus on the cross were likely to be derived from Psalms 22.1 rather than from a specific individual.

Ps 22:1 -
Mt 27:46 - Mr 15:34 - But, the author of gLuke would use Psalms 31.5

Ps 31:5 - Lu 23:46 - These passages are clear indications that the life and actions of Jesus were non-historical and most likely derived from Hebrew Scripture, the Septuagint, or some similar source rather than a specific individual whose history cannot be found anywhere in antiquity.

Loomis

Do you mean like this?

Matthew 27:28-29
They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head

Zechariah 3:5-6
Take away the filthy raiment from him … and clothe ye him with a long robe, and place a pure mitre upon his head

Matthew 27:30
They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again.

Isaiah 50:6
I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

Matthew 27:34
They offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it.

Amos 2:12
You made the Nazirites drink wine and commanded the prophets not to prophesy.

Matthew 27:35
When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Psalm 22:18
They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

Matthew 27:39
Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads …

Psalm 22:7
All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads.

Matthew 27:43
He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

Psalm 22:8
"He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him."

Matthew 27:45
From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.

Amos 8:9
"In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight."

Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Psalm 22:1
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Matthew 27:48
Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink.

Psalm 69:21
They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Matthew 27:51
The earth shook and the rocks were split apart.

Amos 8:8
Will not the land tremble for this,
and all who live in it mourn?

Matthew 27:52
And tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised.

Ezekiel 37:13
Look, I am about to open your graves and will raise you from your graves, my people. I will bring you to the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and raise you from your graves, my people.

Notice that the character in Zechariah 3 is even named Jesus.

aa5874

Exactly. Perfect.

This is good stuff.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition, since it is almost certain or very likely that Jesus was invented from Hebrew Scripture, the Septuagint or some similar source and not from a specific individual.

Larkin31

This could well be. It is hard for me to say with any certainty, particularly since I don't know the history and context of all the other scrolls. I truly informed answer would require that, and I don't know all this.


This is an aweful lot about ME rather than the topic. I won't answer about ME except to say that obviously I am considering the possibility since I am here discussing it and wondering. But as I say, I need more evidence before I will consider a conspiracy.

I just don't see why this is a better explanation at all. We have many many cases in history of persons believing in the divinity and miraculous workings of other humans. Your explanation lacks motive for Mark and the "snowballing" of the story very quickly into a group belief that persons were willing to die for.

Um, cuz you asked if I thought if the author was writing what he thought was true.

Ditto.

This seems irrelevant, and I really don't know.


I am not in this to debate in these terms. I don't share your apparent anger over this.

kcdad

How do you do that? How do you take one piece of information and transfer it to a completely unrelated conclusion?

So the author may have embellished his story... that somehow makes the the subject of the story fictional?

As I suggested with George Washington, because Weems embellished stories of Washington, Washington is then a fictional character?

I don't think anyone who has studied The Bible would argue that the stories are embellished... and they are embellished in many different and specific ways... ways as different and specific as the people writing them. I guess a left handed person would have created stories about Jesus being left handed and cripple might have made up stories about Jesus' limp.

kcdad

Yeah... I like it... JOSHUA! (Not Jesus)