Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 11-09-2012, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Please do not casually throw around libelous charges like this.

cake and ice cream to???

you defend them, then tell others not to post that kind of material.

whats the word that describes that? HHmm

Toto · 11-09-2012, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Please do not casually throw around libelous charges like this.

cake and ice cream to???

you defend them, then tell others not to post that kind of material.

whats the word that describes that? HHmm

Defend who?

Where have I repeated an internet rumor that someone has been caught lying?

Can you learn to write complete sentences that do not leave the reading wondering what you are trying to say?

Jaybees · 11-09-2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Who were the wives of Cain and Seth, the surviving sons of Adam and Eve ?

None. They never married. No rabbi to officiate.

sotto voce · 11-09-2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Who were the wives of Cain and Seth, the surviving sons of Adam and Eve ?

None. They never married. No rabbi to officiate.

So are we to believe that the poster wants it to be thought that Christians always have a human mentor?

Eldarion Lathria · 11-09-2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Who were the wives of Cain and Seth, the surviving sons of Adam and Eve ?

"Now where the hell did she come from?"
"Who?"
"Mrs. Cain, Cain's wife."

Exchange between Clarence Darrow and William Jennings Bryan, Scopes trial.

Eldarion Lathria

[And Terra's rainbow banner flew over Terra's victory.]

sotto voce · 11-09-2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldarion Lathria

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Who were the wives of Cain and Seth, the surviving sons of Adam and Eve ?

"Now where the hell did she come from?"
"Who?"
"Mrs. Cain, Cain's wife."

Exchange between Clarence Darrow and William Jennings Bryan, Scopes trial.

Eldarion Lathria

[And Terra's rainbow banner flew over Terra's victory.]

The Terra being primitive, semi-brutish, in 'medieval' ignorance and superstition.

Chili · 11-09-2012, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Yeah, Cleopatra existed, Hammurabi existed, Hannibal existed, Socrates existed, Gautama existed, Lao Tzu existed, Ethelred existed, the assorted pharoahs existed, Kung Fu Tze existed, Julius Caesar existed, Philip of Macedonia existed, Darius existed, but Moses didn't exist. Hmm.....

You presented a perfect example of a logical fallacy. You ought to know that the existence or non-existence of Moses has nothing whatsoever to do with other figures whether invented or not.

The character called Moses is included in the Myth Fables of the Bible and many accounts of Moses most likely did NOT happen.

If only for the record, I do not believe that Moses was a real life human being as presented but just a person named as leader to fit the allegory. Moses was much like James who was not a 'water walker' either. To this add that James also fed 5000 and those were the children that Moses led astray, as did James with the many scrapts he could not deal with in his promised land (Galilee is equal to the promised land).

Net2004 · 11-10-2012, 03:45 AM

This response was written by Hector Avalos, not John loftus

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...bible-bet.html

quote:

The fact is that there are no manuscripts of the Bible prior to 250 BCE, and so McCall’s claim is empirically supported.

That is to say, the absence of biblical texts before 250 BCE is fully consistent with the claim that there weren’t any.

he Hebrews were writing on virtually every medium that their neighbors used. Their neighbors also used pots, stone, wood, and papyrus. In fact, the Hebrews probably borrowed their writing practices from their neighbors.

Second, there is no evidence presented that the Hebrews had an animosity against writing specifically in cuneiform or on clay tablets. This is pure assumption.

Third, and as Tov notes, any ancient Jewish animosity attested is toward papyrus (Tov, Textual Criticism, p. 193).

Fourth, the style of writing that was preferred for the Torah is called “Assyrian” (Ashshurith) in B. Sanhedrin 21b, and so that refutes the idea that all Jews rejected styles that were “foreign.” “Assyrian” probably refers to the block style of Hebrew/Aramaic letters, but note that they are seen as borrowed from foreigners.

Fifth, practices were too varied, and had so many exceptions, that it is difficult to speak as generally as does Mr. Mazzaferro about scribal practices.

This all depends on how you count the time. If you think that Moses wrote Genesis around 1500 BCE, but there is no trace of it until around 100 BCE, then that is about 1400 years of the “disappearance” of Genesis from our archaeological record.

This is a very naïve view of scribal practices. First, you provide no evidence that “copyists exercised great care to transmit the text accurately” soon after the originals were written. For example, where is the evidence of such scribal practices around 1200 BCE?

Second, you used evidence from the Masoretic Text (ca. 1000 CE) and generalize it to pre-Christian scribal practices. Yet, you direct McCall to ensure that he distinguishes the different types of textual traditions of the Hebrew Bible.

Third, the vast amount of variants empirically refutes any claim that the scribes were as careful as you claim.

Fourth, you ignore that many rules meant to ensure accuracy often were counterproductive.

For example, in his study of rabbinic scribal practices, Jason Kalman focuses on how B. Gittin 6b directs that when more than 2 or 3 three words were quoted from Scripture, then incised lines must be applied to that document before writing those scriptural words.

That directive sometimes meant that scribes deleted words from a biblical text, jumbled a biblical text, or “cheated” to avoid the cost of incising their document.

Kalman remarks, “The rules designed to protect the correct transmission of sacred texts may very well have been the impetus for their corruption and add momentously to the difficulty of trying to describe the text of the Bible the rabbis used.”

See Jason Kalman, “Writing Between the Lines: Rabbinic Epistolography and the Transmission of the Text of the Hebrew Bible in Antiquity,” Maarav 17, no. 1 (2010):57-88, quote on p. 88.

Finally, your claim is contradicted by the Bible itself. Note the comments of Jeremiah 8:8 (RSV):

"How can you say, `We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie."

Biblical authors knew that scribes were perfectly capable of falsifying or corrupting scripture.

DCHindley · 11-10-2012, 07:33 AM

Just to illuminate this discussion, I looked at the accreditation of the schools he mentions:
[INDENT]I earned a bachelor's degree from Great Lakes Christian College,

Accreditation: The Higher Learning Commission of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools

two master's degrees from Lincoln Christian University,

Accreditation: Higher Learning Commission of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools

a Master's of Theology degree with half of the hours in William Lane Craig's classes at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School,

Accreditation: Commission on Institutions of Higher Education of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools.

[William Lane Craig was an Assistant Professor of Philosophy of Religion, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, 1980-86.]

and then spent a year and a half in a PhD program at Marquette University in Theology and Ethics.

Marquette is a Catholic and Jesuit university … accredited by the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Institutes of Higher Education through The Higher Learning Commission.

Most students who spend this much time in school would have their PhD's by that time.[list of classes omitted]. . .

Students in the theology and society specialization must complete at least 30 credit hours (10 classes) of theology course work (primarily in one area of specialization: Judaism and Christianity in antiquity, historical theology or systematics and theological ethics) selected around the theology and society theme; at least 18 credit hours (six classes) in two other areas of theology; and 12 credit hours (four classes) in one or more related area of human sciences …

Students with master’s degrees in theology may incorporate some of their previous course work into their doctoral program, providing the courses are approved by the department’s Committee on Graduate Studies

• Full-time students typically take nine credit hours per semester
• Students typically complete the program in five to seven years.

Note: The accreditation work of the North Central Association is undertaken by two independent corporations that are components of the association:

1) The Higher Learning Commission (HLC) oversees higher education accreditation, providing institution-level accreditation of degree-granting colleges and universities.[This is the same body that accredits schools such as Ohio State University, where I graduated]

2) The Commission on Accreditation and School Improvement (NCA CASI) accredits a wide variety of educational institutions, ranging from early childhood, through elementary, middle, and secondary schools to adult-vocational, college preparatory, and non-degree granting post-secondary institutions.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Here is Loftus' training:

I earned a bachelor's degree from Great Lakes Christian College, two master's degrees from Lincoln Christian University, a Master's of Theology degree with half of the hours in William Lane Craig's classes at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and then spent a year and a half in a PhD program at Marquette University in Theology and Ethics. Most students who spend this much time in school would have their PhD's by that time.[list of classes omitted]. ... You would think I studied the issues out to know what I'm talking about, yes? I mean, really, you cannot claim I'm ignorant. That option is not one you can seriously entertain. I might be wrong, but I'm not ignorant.

Do you have any more support for your crazy idea that John Loftus is untrained? Would you like to compare your training?

Chili · 11-10-2012, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Just to illuminate this discussion, I looked at the accreditation of the schools he mentions:

//

[Most students who spend this much time in school would have their PhD's by that time.[list of classes omitted]. . .

//

]

So is it fair to say that anyone going to University and not coming home with a PhD is a University drop-out? . . . especially when they go try again and again?

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