FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-01-2012, 11:51 AM   #61
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

really? peer reviewed blogs? wide spread? examples?
stephan huller is offline  
Old 10-01-2012, 12:07 PM   #62
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,387
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
really? peer reviewed blogs? wide spread? examples?
Perhaps I am being unclear. Lots of academics post information in their blogs that will later make its way into peer-reviewed publication hoping for criticism and suggestions.

A peer-reviewed blog is an inherently silly idea.

In the same way, ALL academics publishing journal articles or scholarly books are going to go through the peer review process informally if not formally to make sure their work is as strong and defensible as possible.

So my point on your blog is: "So, what?"

Yeah, you may have more "academic rigor" then most forum posters, but it doesn't make you anything near as reliable as an accredited scholar. Especially if you have a habit of ignoring criticism from the dissenting views you publish.
Duke Leto is offline  
Old 10-01-2012, 12:40 PM   #63
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

Jusqu'à présent, nous sommes d'accord alors. But where I have received dissenting views I have published responses to that criticism (as is the case with Mason) or here at the forum. The real question for me at least is that I feel that there is a circumstantial case to be made for Jews always having regarded Agrippa as the messiah. The argument is implicit in the various texts of Josephus, explicit in the Yosippon as well as various other source materials. Is it as strong a case as that for Jesus being the messiah of the Jews? Yes, certainly for this is an inherently implausible argument as Jewish exegetical sources have always noted because Jesus was (a) never a king (b) certainly not a descended of David (c) had many substantive problems with even the idea that he claimed to be the messiah. It was within this context that I decided to write the book - i.e. that a better case can be made for Agrippa than Jesus.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 10-01-2012, 01:08 PM   #64
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

And I think that from henceforth you should direct your comments to the plausibility of that hypothesis. 90% of your attacks are directed against me personally. Please at least attempt an argument against the plausibility of this thesis. Otherwise you demonstrate yourself to be engaging in a sustained ad hominem attack.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 10-01-2012, 01:26 PM   #65
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

Apparently I see someone has mapped the size and location of Agrippa's fortress on the internet:

http://wikimapia.org/14440437/The-Palace-of-Agrippa-II
stephan huller is offline  
Old 10-01-2012, 01:29 PM   #66
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

Another example of errors in Josephus apparently (even though this discovery is often presented as 'confirming' Josephus's narrative. As part of his fortification of the city of Jerusalem, Herod is said by Josephus to have built three towers incorporated into the into the city walls, one of which still survives to this day, the so-called Tower of David. The surviving tower may be the Phasael tower, named after Herod's brother. The top portion of the tower, constructed of smaller stones, was repaired by the crusaders of the 12th century and later. The lower portion displays the typical masonry style of Herod's building projects. (Josephus describes the city walls and Herod's three towers in War 5.4.1-4; 135-75.)

But recently archaeology rejects this understanding.

http://jonathanturley.org/2011/11/29/42155/
stephan huller is offline  
Old 10-01-2012, 01:47 PM   #67
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,387
Default

I am struggling to find a garbled High School French quote that will suitably encapsulate my incomprehension of the language.

The last French language film I watched featured Brigitte LaHaie, unfortunately.

And another day I could have spent writing passes away...

EDIT: When I started writing only the French "Then we agree" was visible. Several posts have elapsed since then.

Let me state again that I'm not going to attack the "Agrippa = Messiah" idea because it's a theological question and a waste of time. Likewise Agrippa's presence or non-presence at a fictional crucifixion is also irrelevant. You got my attention by making a pretty outrageous hypothesis (that Josephus is a 2nd Century Christian forgery) that invalidates a big swathe of actual history, and then supporting it with arguments that really were ridiculous. I'm a history geek. People doing crappy history annoys me.

Whatever the validity of your reading of the Clement of Alexandria quotation, the timeline you gave for the interaction between Christian Proto-Josephus and the canonical gospels is untenable. An Amazon "Real Messiah" reviewer stated that you believe Irenaeus split up an Agrippan Pan-Gospel into the four canonical ones and you stated in the previous thread that the "Josephan" material was added to Luke at this time. I'm not sure how you made your way around the Mark/Q problem, but that doesn't matter.

As I pointed out in the last thread, for Irenaeus to have done what I described above, he would have to have been insane. You are telling us that the final redactor of the canonical gospels also had what would come to be accepted as the secular history of Judea at the time of the Gospels in his control to do with as he pleased...

And he CREATED the Infancy Narrative contradictions! Or if nothing else he allowed them to continue to exist after carefully editing around the Gospel texts he was given, but then failed to edit the Josephus texts to cover up the problem he absolutely could not have missed.

You are aware that there is an Infancy Narrative contradiction based on the chronology of Herod and his sons in Josephus, right?

You really need to deal with this one Stephan. I might have been the first to point it out, but if you carry it through to publication, I won't be the last.
Duke Leto is offline  
Old 10-01-2012, 01:49 PM   #68
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

= "agreed/we agree"
stephan huller is offline  
Old 10-01-2012, 02:02 PM   #69
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ohio
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Leto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
Quote:
Hegesippus was unknown previously as a Greek name
While I was unaware that the name existed in classical Greek texts it is generally acknowledged by scholars that the Christian use of the name Hegesippus is a corruption of 'Joseph.' Part of the reason for this is that 'Hegesippus' was Jewish.
Well that's a start. Thank you for admitting there was something you were unaware of.

Problem is now that all of the scholars you just quoted were talking about the author of the "Pseudo-Hegesippus" document. You're passing that off as a consensus that the non-extant 2nd Century Church Historian Hegesippus referred to by the various Church Fathers (Were there ever any Church Uncles?) must have originated as a corruption of Josephus, and moreover that Pseudo-Hegesippus and 2nd Century Hegesippus are therefore the same thing.

From the cursory reading of the Hegesippus wiki article I made during our last spitting contest (the one it took one look at the disambiguation link to find Athenian Hegesippus from), no such consensus exists for conflating Josephus with Hegesippus with Pseudo-Hegesippus. The only person besides yourself to have suggested it appears to be Robert M. Price.

By the by, if I haven't already mentioned it, there's a possibility for Agrippa II having no children that you seen to have forgotten which is much simpler than castration. He might have been gay. That could explain a non-sexual closeness with Berenice that could easily have been misinterpreted as sexual to outside observers.

Maryhelena posted a quote from your tutor, from your site I believe, about your inadequate methodological rigor as a historian as opposed to a theologian. (He and I seem to share the attitude that theologians can pretty much make up whatever nonsense they want.) The Athenian Hegesippus is pretty emblematic of that.

You asserted as a piece of evidence that Hegesippus was not a genuine Greek name. You probably got that from someone else, my money's on Price. But you didn't stop before you made the assertion to think: "Is this accurate? I'd better double check." It took me five minutes of research to disprove it, and I doubt it would have taken you as long. If you had done your homework you'd not have been caught out making a gaffe.

If you intend to play around with History you need to do your homework, not just the things you want to prove but to disprove the objections other people are going to make. And you can't depend on what other people tell you, you need to drill down to their primary sources and replicate their work.

Here's a suggestion for a line of inquiry that may be useful:

You've asserted that the Talmud only talks about one Agrippa and it must be Agrippa II instead of the generally assumed Agrippa I. If there were two it would talk about both of them.

Go through the whole of the Talmud and find the references it makes to the various Kings of Israel and Judea. That would include the Davidic dynasty, the Jeroboam dynasty, the Omride dynasty, the Hasmoneans and the Herodeans. Good. Are they all attested? Any missing? Because if there's even one other malik not in the Talmud then some jerk like me is going to point to them as evidence that Agrippa II being missing from the Talmud is meaningless. (Especially since he was a traitor who helped destroy Jerusalem and the Temple.)

That's the kind of paranoid mindset you need to develop if you want to write quality history.
in the first place tell me where in history homosexuality was abar to procreation. it would have been a surprise to the windsor(saxe-coburg-gothas) house. this whole thing is absurd historically.
anethema is offline  
Old 10-01-2012, 02:06 PM   #70
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

to whom is this addressed?
stephan huller is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:02 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.