Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ceres · 09-12-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

This is an invidious comparison. In the first centuries of the common era, they didn't have a way to mass produce texts, like we do now. Mss were quite expensive to make. A good illuminated vellum for instance of any length is estimated to have cost about $30K to produce.

So the fact that a text is copied and recopied and preserved and duplicated in the 1-3rd centuries CE, suggests the text had particular meaning to people, who were willing to bear the rather high cost of this dissemination.

That's not evidence of historical accuracy per se, but it is evidence of importance. And if a text is important and purports to be historical, it suggests it may have undergone a level of scrutiny about its historical accuracy that some two-bit graeco-roman romance, that exists in only one ms, would not.

This is a very good post, it is true that they took a lot of effort to copy the New Testament by hand. The most common way to do this was to get an entire room full of individuals ready and one person who read the document aloud while the other wrote it down. You can see how that would lead to discrepancies.

ceres · 09-12-2006, 10:28 AM

And I don't know about you, but its no comfort to me to know that the gospels were written within 100 years of Jesus' death. If I wrote a book about the depression based on what I heard.... that would still be hearsay.

Heidi Guedel · 09-12-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceres

...it is true that they took a lot of effort to copy the New Testament by hand. The most common way to do this was to get an entire room full of individuals ready and one person who read the document aloud while the other wrote it down. You can see how that would lead to discrepancies..

Yes. I've played "telephone" as a child... haven't you?

Quote:

And I don't know about you, but its no comfort to me to know that the gospels were written within 100 years of Jesus' death. If I wrote a book about the depression based on what I heard.... that would still be hearsay.

Absolutely. The very premise that the Wholly Babble was anything but a collection of writings by typically fallible human beings is so ridiculous and unsupportable that it makes all discussions parsing the scriptures absolutely pointless. The fact that human beings continue to argue about it, and even to kill each other over their disagreements about it, is pitiful.

ceres · 09-12-2006, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heidi Guedel

Yes. I've played "telephone" as a child... haven't you?

Absolutely. The very premise that the Wholly Babble was anything but a collection of writings by typically fallible human beings is so ridiculous and unsupportable that it makes all discussions parsing the scriptures absolutely pointless. The fact that human beings continue to argue about it, and even to kill each other over their disagreements about it, is pitiful.

:huh: Who are you disagreeing with, since I'm on your "side" ?

Heidi Guedel · 09-12-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceres

:huh: Who are you disagreeing with, since I'm on your "side" ?

I'm agreeing with you, ceres. My reaction to your posts is affirmative.

My disagreement is with the very process of people wasting their time and mental energy arguing over the meaning of the verses in an ancient book which is just a collection of writings by ordinary, fallible human beings. People have been killing each other for centuries because of such disagreements about it. I'm disgusted with the whole thing, and I'm ranting.... I agreed with your posts, ceres, and I just elaborated a bit on the good points you made.

Amaleq13 · 09-12-2006, 10:58 AM

The tangent about the speed of light has been split out and merged into this thread.

Amaleq13 · 09-12-2006, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzim77

So there's two ways to interperet this passage...

1. Jesus was saying that he was not good. And that he was not God, because only God is good. This would then be the first time that Jesus said anything along the lines of 'I am not good'.

2. Jesus was acknowledging that he *is* good and indeed that he *is* God. Thus giving the rich young ruler a clue as to how to find eternal life.

Only the first responds to the actual text and can be correctly identified as an "interpretation". The second ignores the text entirely and, therefore, cannot really be considered an "interpretation" of the text but a perversion of it.

Quote:

This is not proof that Jesus said he wasn't God.

Given your unwillingness to deal with the text as it exists, no such proof can possibly exist. The plain meaning of the text clearly has Jesus differentiating between himself and God.

Heidi Guedel · 09-12-2006, 11:15 AM

The following was inspired by God! It's all true! Many copies have been made for a really really long time and no one has ever translated it incorrectly, either!:

Quote:

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

- Lewis Carroll
(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)

Amaleq13 · 09-12-2006, 11:22 AM

Another example of Jesus explicitly differentiating himself from God:

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Mk15:34, KJV)

Does Jesus pray to himself here and ask himself why he has forsaken himself?

Heidi Guedel · 09-12-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Another example of Jesus explicitly differentiating himself from God:

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Mk15:34, KJV)

Does Jesus pray to himself here and ask himself why he has forsaken himself?

BEAUTIFUL. EXCELLENT. At least that scripture presents a believable viewpoint. The man seemed to realize that he was not "God", and he also appeared to realize that "God" was not intervening to save his righteous pooter from torture and death, either. Very good. Makes sense to me.

But everything Cab Calloway said/wrote/sang was inspired by God - just try to prove it wasn't:

Quote:

When your sweetie tells you, everything'll be okay,
Just skeep-beep de bop-bop beep bop bo-dope skeetle-at-de-op-de-day!

If you feel like shoutin', advertise it just this way:
And skeep-beep de bop-bop beep bop bo-dope skeetle-at-de-op-de-day!

Don't give a hang what words you use at any time,
Sing this silly language, without any reason or rhyme.

When you face the preacher, there's only one thing to say:
Just skeep-beep de bop-bop beep bop bo-dope skeetle-at-de-op-day!

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09-12-2006, 10:28 AM	#72
ceres Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 330	And I don't know about you, but its no comfort to me to know that the gospels were written within 100 years of Jesus' death. If I wrote a book about the depression based on what I heard.... that would still be hearsay.

09-12-2006, 10:58 AM	#76
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	The tangent about the speed of light has been split out and merged into this thread.

09-12-2006, 11:22 AM	#79
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Another example of Jesus explicitly differentiating himself from God: And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Mk15:34, KJV) Does Jesus pray to himself here and ask himself why he has forsaken himself?

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