Freethought & Rationalism Archive

richard2 · 01-31-2006, 03:36 PM

Hi,

I didn't know where to put to start this thread, so if it is out of place, please move it to its appropriate one.

Anyway, I hear a lot about Jesus being a copy of older myths, that he follows the 'mythic hero archetype', etc, but then I read Glenn Miller's article here http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html, and I'm starting to wonder who is really right. Could someone illuminate me on the subject and perhaps provide critiques of Miller's (long) article?

thanks,

richard

countjulian · 01-31-2006, 03:43 PM

crticism of the theory are usually directed at Freke & Gandy and their ilk who make wild, unsabstantiated claims and hurt the theory for the rest of us. You might be interested in this little peice of work I did, complete with primary sources...

Quote:

The Greek god Perseus, born of the virgin Danae and Zeus in a shower of gold:

Perseus, the son of Jove [Zeus] and her whom, in her prison, Juppiter’s [Zeus’] golden shower made fertile. — Metamorphoses 4.697

The Greek god Heracles (known to you under his Roman name, Hercules), who died in agony, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven:

Heracles, whom she had by Zeus…the poison of the hydra began to corrode his skin…and [he] tore off the tunic, which clung to his body, so that his flesh was torn away with it. In such a sad plight he was carried on shipboard to Trachis… [Heracles] proceeded to Mount Oeta, in the Trachinian territory, and there constructed a pyre, mounted it, and gave orders to kindle it. When no one would do so, Poeas, passing by to look for his flocks, set a light to it. On him Hercules bestowed his bow. While the pyre was burning, it is said that a cloud passed under Hercules and with a peal of thunder wafted him up to heaven. Thereafter he obtained immortality-- Apollodorus, 'The Library,' 11; IV, 8-VII, 7

The Greek god Asclepius, who made the blind see, raised men from the dead, died, and was resurrected:

"Asclepius was the son of Apollo [a god] and Coronis [a mortal woman]...he healed many sick whose lives had been despaired of, and... he brought back to life many who had died."—Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 4.7.1.1- 2

When Hippolytus was killed,...Asclepius raised him from the dead."—Pausanias, Corinth, Description of Greece, 1.27.5

Hermon of Thasus. His blindness was cured by Asclepius.— Inscriptiones Graecae, 4.1.121 - 122, Stele 2.22

"The youth [Asklepios] blasted by ancestral bolts [of Zeus] soars from earth…Phoebus [Apollon], you whined. He is a god; smile at your father, who, for your sake, undoes his prohibitions [and grants Asklepios life]-- Ovid, Fasti 6.735

…Hercules [Herakles], of Castor and Pollux [the Dioskouroi], of Aesculapius [Asklepios] ... And these benefactors were duly deemed divine, as being both supremely good and immortal, because their souls survived and enjoyed eternal life.—Cicero, Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2.24

The salvation god Mithra, who spilled eternal blood to save humanity, and left his followers with a sacred Eucharist:

You [Mithra] have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood.—Inscription, Santa Prisca Mithraeum in Rome

This rite [communion] the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For they set forth bread and a cup of water with certain incantations in their ceremonies of initiation—Justin Martyr, First Apology 68

The Egyptian god Osiris, who died, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, where he will judge the living and the dead, forever and ever:

[the first examination]
They [the Gods of the Underworld] say, "Come forward.
They say, "Who are you,"
They say, "What is your name?"
"I am the he who is equipped under the flowers, the-dweller-in-the-moringa Osiris is my name."—Egyptian book of the Dead

the rites celebrated by night agree with the accounts of the dismemberment of Osiris and his resurrection and regenesis—Plutarch, Isis and Osiris 364

Isis, who resurrected Osiris and with him guarantees salvation to all who except Osiris as savior:

The keys of hell and the guarantee of salvation were in the hands of the goddess, and the initiation ceremony itself a kind of voluntary death and salvation through divine grace.—
Apuleius, Metamorphosis, Book 11, 21

And [the followers of Isis & Osiris said], "Be of good cheer, O initiates, for the god is saved, and we shall have salvation— Firmicus Maternus, The Error of Pagan Religions, 22.1

The Greek god Dionysus, who turned water to wine, did miracles, died, and was resurrected:

One woman [bacchant]
struck her thyrsus against a rock and a fountain
of cool water came bubbling up. Another drove
her fennel in the ground, and where it struck the earth,
at the touch of god [Dionysus], a spring of wine poured out….— Euripides, The Bacchae, 707- 712

the fierce resentment of implacable Hera, the Titanes cunningly smeared their round faces with disguising chalk, and while he contemplated his changeling countenance reflected in a mirror they destroyed him with an infernal knife. There where his limbs had been cut piecemeal by the Titan steel, the end of his life was the beginning of a new life-- Nonnus, Dionysiaca 6.155

The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and ...having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven--Justin Martyr, First Apology, 54

Toto · 02-01-2006, 01:17 AM

Search this forum for "copycat" and you will find lots of previous threads.

Noggin · 02-01-2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richard2

Hi,

I didn't know where to put to start this thread, so if it is out of place, please move it to its appropriate one.

Anyway, I hear a lot about Jesus being a copy of older myths, that he follows the 'mythic hero archetype', etc, but then I read Glenn Miller's article here http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html, and I'm starting to wonder who is really right. Could someone illuminate me on the subject and perhaps provide critiques of Miller's (long) article?

thanks,

richard

Richard,

The DVD "The God Who Wasn't There" does a fair to moderate job in explaining this Jesus figure is probably a rip off from the greeks. I bought it last week and was entertained for 90 minutes. I would suggest picking it up used on half.com or ebay. It isn't worth 27 dollars. But 15 or 20? sure!

In actuality, there are 16 different savior myths out there that I know of. Do a search on google for "Savior myths" or "Jesus Myths" and you will feel your eyes roll back into your head.

Oh the anger, the betrayal I first felt when I saw this stuff. What a dupe I had been for three decades!

Noggin

jjramsey · 02-01-2006, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noggin

In actuality, there are 16 different savior myths out there that I know of.

Are you sure that you aren't talking about Kersey Graves' 16 crucified saviors?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noggin

Do a search on google for "Savior myths" or "Jesus Myths" and you will feel your eyes roll back into your head.

So what? The internet is as much a source for misinformation as information. For example, the stuff about Mithras being born of a virgin, accompanied by shepherds, having twelve disciples, and being resurrected is utterly and completely bogus. (source)

For a further look at why Freke and Gandy should not be trusted, see here:

http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/inde...esus_Mysteries

Noggin · 02-01-2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Are you sure that you aren't talking about Kersey Graves' 16 crucified saviors?

So what? The internet is as much a source for misinformation as information. For example, the stuff about Mithras being born of a virgin, accompanied by shepherds, having twelve disciples, and being resurrected is utterly and completely bogus. (source)

For a further look at why Freke and Gandy should not be trusted, see here:

http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/inde...esus_Mysteries

Aw, and I swallowed that hook line and sinker when the DVD "The God That Wasn't There" fed it to me. Mithris, as the source you provide states, is not well connected to the Jesus story. (as far as parallels go it is a stretch at best). There are other more compelling stories that could have been the ripoff for the Jesus story.

Hercules comes to mind.

Noggin

Noggin · 02-01-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

For a further look at why Freke and Gandy should not be trusted, see here:

http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/inde...esus_Mysteries

Hey, I checked this one too. That link appears to be nothing more than apologetica. The author spins an elaborate web but will not concede even a few obvious well placed facts. He tries to spin it all away. There is a definate agenda at that link.

Have you read any of Joseph Campbell, jjramsey? Hero of 100 faces? The Power of Myth? These are some well documented myths that point to copycatting/plagerism of christian lore from the creation to the flood to the virgin birth.

Just a thought.

Noggin

jjramsey · 02-02-2006, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noggin

Hey, I checked this one too. That link appears to be nothing more than apologetica. The author spins an elaborate web but will not concede even a few obvious well placed facts. He tries to spin it all away. There is a definate agenda at that link.

Have you read any of Joseph Campbell, jjramsey?

Yes, it was one of the things that I noticed was misquoted in that review (which I wrote, FWIW). Campbell talks about Persephone, but the endnote makes it appear as if he were discussing Semele. And I'd hardly say that there was an elaborate web. It's very straightforward: Here's the text, here's the endnotes to the text, and here's what the text actually says. About the only departures are in noting how seriously to take the "Hymn to the Mother of the Gods," and the discussion of Epiphanius and his reliability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noggin

There are other more compelling stories that could have been the ripoff for the Jesus story.

Hercules comes to mind.

A half-man, half-god with superstrength who does twelve labors, and whose divine part ascsend to heaven when his body burns on the funeral pyre.

Yeah, real strong parallel.

countjulian · 02-02-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

A half-man, half-god with superstrength who does twelve labors, and whose divine part ascsend to heaven when his body burns on the funeral pyre.

No, but a son of God and a mortal women, who does great deeds, is betrayed by someone close to him, dies an agonizing but voluntary death, conquers said death, and ascends to heaven, just might.

jjramsey · 02-02-2006, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countjulian

No, but a son of God and a mortal women, who does great deeds, is betrayed by someone close to him, dies an agonizing but voluntary death, conquers said death, and ascends to heaven, just might.

"Great deeds" here is a vague term used to hide huge and essential differences. The same thing can be said for being "betrayed by someone close to him":

Quote:

Hercules went to the town of Thebes and married Deianira. She bore him many children. Later on in their life, the male centaur, Nessus, abducted Deianira, but Hercules came to her rescue by shooting Nessus with a poison tipped arrow. The dying Nessus told Deianira to keep a portion of his blood to use as a love potion on Hercules if she felt that she was losing him to another woman. A couple of a months later, Deianira thought that another woman was coming between her and her husband, so Deianira washed one of Hercules' shirts in Nessus' blood and gave it to him to wear. Nessus had lied to her, for the blood really acted as a poison and almost killed Hercules.

From http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hercules.html

The similarities are vague and the differences are profound.

01-31-2006, 03:36 PM	#1
richard2 Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The Nox Planet Posts: 438	Jesus the Copycat Savior? Hi, I didn't know where to put to start this thread, so if it is out of place, please move it to its appropriate one. Anyway, I hear a lot about Jesus being a copy of older myths, that he follows the 'mythic hero archetype', etc, but then I read Glenn Miller's article here http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html, and I'm starting to wonder who is really right. Could someone illuminate me on the subject and perhaps provide critiques of Miller's (long) article? thanks, richard

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02-01-2006, 01:17 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Search this forum for "copycat" and you will find lots of previous threads.

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