Johnny Skeptic

The claim that Jesus performed miracles must have been widely rejected during the first century, which would be expected if he did not perform miracles. In "The Rise of Christianity," Rodney Stark estimates that there were 7,530 Christians in the entire world in 100 A.D. In Christian apologist James Holding's article "The Impossible Faith," Holding says "Wright concludes:

'This subversive belief in Jesus' Lordship, over against that of Caesar, was held in the teeth of the fact that Caesar had demonstrated his superior power in the obvious way, by having Jesus crucified. But the truly extraordinary thing is that this belief was held by a tiny group who, for the first two or three generations at least, could hardly have mounted a riot in a village, let alone a revolution in an empire.'"

The texts say that Jesus performed many miracles in Jerusalem, throughout all Galilee, and throughout all Syria, and that he performed many more miracles that were not recorded. If that happened, Jesus' exploits would have been unprecedented in human history, and he would easily have become the biggest celebrity in the entire Middle East and beyond. Non-Christian, first century history does not indicate that that was the case.

The same kind of argument also applies to the stories of the Ten Plagues in Egypt. If they occured, they would easily have been the biggest news stories in the entire world, and yet only the Bible mentions them. If Hindu writings made similar unsupported claims, surely many Christians who support the stories of the Ten Plagues would object to the claims.

As you know, the texts say that the Pharisees believed that Jesus performed miracles by the power of Beelzebub. That is very unlikely since the Pharisees must have believed that Moses performed many miracles in Egypt, and thus would have been quite pleased if a supposed messiah also performed miracles.

rhutchin

Suffering?? Where do you get that idea?

Johnny Skeptic

Message to rhutchin: Is it your position that the Bible does not contain any errors except for copyist and scribal errors? If so, there are many issues that I wish to discuss with you, including the global flood. If you wish, we can discuss the global flood at the Evolution/Creation forum or the Science Discussions forum.

I would also like to discuss the morality of God with you at the Abrahamic Religions forum.

Johnny Skeptic

Yes, it is good that people learn that a global flood did not occur, that the earth is old, that if a God created life on earth, he created it slowly over time, that the Ten Plagues in Egypt did not occur, and that the Pharisees did not believe that Jesus performed miracles by the power of Beelzebub.

Those are just a few of many reasonably provable Bible errors that are obvious. No one knows how many more Bible errors are not obvious.

Many of the most important claims in the Bible are not verifiable by any means except for faith. Following are some examples:

1. The God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth.

2. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

3. Jesus was born of a virgin.

4. Jesus never sinned.

5. Jesus' shed blood and death atoned for the sins of mankind.

What criteria do you use to verify supernatural claims in various ancient texts?

andrewcriddle

This is,at best, an argument that the miracles of Jesus were not in fact as spectacular as some of the Gospel accounts suggest.

I also think that you are underestimating how remote events in the village areas of Galilee were from the concerns of the sort of people who wrote the historical accounts that have come down to us from that period.

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

That is correct, partly for the reasons that I stated.

But the texts say that Jesus performed miracles in Jerusalem, throughout all Galilee, and throughout all Syria, and that vast multitudes of people sometimes followed him, and that he performed many more miracles that were not recorded. That indicates not only remote villages, but towns and cities. The writers of the accounts obviously intended for their readers to believe that Jesus performed enough miracles in enough places to reasonably establish that he was able to perform miracles, and that would have to include the Roman government in Palestine, who surely would have conducted investigations about the miracles that Jesus supposedly performed.

In my post #37, I showed that self-interest is the main reason why Christians find textual evidence to be convincing, and that multiple attestations are only convincing to Christians because the attestations make attractive promises to believers. You ignored what I said, but ignoring what I said does not change the validity of my arguments.

rhutchin

As you say, "Many of the most important claims in the Bible are not verifiable by any means except for faith."

rhutchin

Certainly, even if over a long time, God would have had to be involved as there is no naturalistic means whereby it could happen.

Sheshbazzar

And you know this for a fact?
How?

aa5874

What has faith verified?

Verification is NOT a function of Faith.