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Old 12-08-2008, 02:57 AM   #31
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Why? The number of people with knowledge of ancient Islamic texts outside of Moslems is tiny. Who else do we expect to know about such things? Not that most do, but even fewer of everyone else.
Please. Most "born again" Christians are not scholars, or will ever receive any exposure to classical material. And in relation to the Muslim comparison, most of us are historically Christian, even if presently atheistic, so these things are part of our historical tradition, even if we are no longer "saved". So yes, it is funny that anyone would thing that an evangelical conversion would imply access to knowledge of such subjects.
Try reading my comment, rather than reiterating your own. Learning starts with opening your eyes.

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Old 12-08-2008, 03:53 AM   #32
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Try reading my comment, rather than reiterating your own. Learning starts with opening your eyes.
That from someone who goes around with his eyes wide shot.
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:51 AM   #33
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Try reading my comment, rather than reiterating your own. Learning starts with opening your eyes.
That from someone who goes around with his eyes wide shot.
Probably best not to make assertions like that about strangers.

All the best,

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Old 12-08-2008, 09:58 AM   #34
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That from someone who goes around with his eyes wide shot.
Probably best not to make assertions like that about strangers.
Self-identified Christians are not strangers to me.
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:45 AM   #35
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shesh... thanks for the welcom no i do not consider my self to be so well educated but im stil learning and i read the kjv bible only and i dont do much searchng into the new world things
You might want to look a bit beyond the KJ bible in order to participate more fully in conversation here.
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:04 AM   #36
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Hi all - let's try to avoid the personal sniping and digressions that just create more work for the moderators and get back to this interesting question of why Athanasius, described up to the 20th century as a short, fair, red haired, vertically challenged person (a "dwarf", according to Julian), is now almost universally referred to as the "black dwarf."

The first identifiable source for this is a popular textbook written by the Cuban born Justo_Gonzalez, a Methodist trained at Yale. Gonzalez is retired, but I don't see an indication of an email address. He appears to be bilingual - was this phrase a translation from the Spanish? Was he reading a source that he did not footnote? Did an error creep in that has been repeated on countless web pages?
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:09 AM   #37
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Hi all - let's try to avoid the personal sniping and digressions that just create more work for the moderators...
I apologize for my misbehaviour...
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:12 AM   #38
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The first identifiable source for this is a popular textbook written by the Cuban born Justo_Gonzalez, a Methodist trained at Yale.
Could you give more details? (and how you got it!) I couldn't find anything before "The Holy Fire" (1957) you mention above.
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:51 PM   #39
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I am just using the information on this thread. Andrew Criddle suggested that Gonzalez was the source, and this seems credible - he wrote a textbook that appears to be in widespread use.

The "Holy Fire" does not use the term "black dwarf." It does say that "his skin was blackish," and that "more than one commentator refers to the unusual darkness of his skin." But all previous books that we can find call him fair complexioned. The only source mentioned is Gregory of Nazianzen, who does not comment on Athanasius' skin color.

And the author of Holy Fire seems to be novelist and poet Pierre Stephen Robert Payne. The Amazon reviewer notes:
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Payne's work has a number of historical flukes and inconsistencies and his adulation of Origen and the Gnostic texts discovered at Nag Hammadi in Egypt is questionable by Orthodox standards. However, as Hopko notes, it is the spirit of Payne's work that makes it a worthwhile read.
So as a historical source, this should probably be ignored, until its sources can be discovered.
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:18 PM   #40
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I am just using the information on this thread. Andrew Criddle suggested that Gonzalez was the source, and this seems credible - he wrote a textbook that appears to be in widespread use.
Me bad. Scan on the run.

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The "Holy Fire" does not use the term "black dwarf."
But it (originally 1957 but rereleased in 1980) seems to be the first to say "enemies" (vs an enemy i.e. Julian) called Athanasius a dwarf. This brings "called 'black dwarf' by his enemies" one step closer. Then, as Andrew said, 1984 has Gonzalez who ties "black" in.

Search for "black dwarf" and Athanasius on google books and the next book is from 1995, when the "respected black leader" Tony Evans (using Gonzalez?) turns Athanasius into a black hero. He's backed up by 1997's "Defending Black Faith".

Conclusion?: one enemy Julian became enemies in 1980. Dwarf became black dwarf in 1984 and in the mid nineties, an African-American hero is born. All done in "respectable" books, before the internet and its creative ability.
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