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Old 08-16-2008, 07:01 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Dave31 View Post
You don't find: "...there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits." relevant?
It does not support your claim that "... CHRISTIAN biblical scholars admitting that there's no evidence for Jesus that can stand up to peer review and scientific scrutiny." nor your claim that "... popular Christian biblical authorities who largely represent mainstream scholarship do not agree that there is evidence for Jesus."
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Old 09-01-2008, 06:42 PM   #82
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I appreciate the points you're making Amaleq13 fair enough, but you seem to be missing the much larger picture here. You seem to be getting a little anal over one comment from one Catholic University New Testament professor, Catholic priest and monsignor, John P. Meier. This is not the only quote I've provided here:

Quote:
"...there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits. Claims that later apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material supply independent and reliable historical information about Jesus are largely fantasy. In the end, the historian is left with the difficult task of sifting through the Four Gospels for historical tradition."

- John P. Meier, "A Marginal Jew," vol. II, 5.
The fact is, the author actually did a great job of organizing the best that top Christian biblical scholars have to offer in her book Who Was Jesus?with a mostly Christian, NT & biblical scholar bibliography - they all make commentary about the lack of evidence for Jesus and problems with the bible in their own way. The author takes the argument straight into the Christian camp with their own commentary.

So, if you think Christian biblical scholars have primary source evidence that is convincing enough to withstand scrutiny then, LETS SEE IT? Otherwise, the Xian scholars in WWJ don't agree with you.
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Old 09-01-2008, 08:45 PM   #83
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I appreciate the points you're making Amaleq13 fair enough, but you seem to be missing the much larger picture here.
No, the "larger picture" is that your use of the quote as though it supported your claims was misleading. And I have not missed it.

Quote:
You seem to be getting a little anal...
That is an interesting way to characterize pointing out that the quote your proffered as though it supported your claims, does not actually do so. :huh:
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:52 AM   #84
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That is an interesting way to characterize pointing out that the quote your proffered as though it supported your claims, does not actually do so.
I don't think you're completely accurate and the quote itself demonstrates that:

"...there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits. Claims that later apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material supply independent and reliable historical information about Jesus are largely fantasy. In the end, the historian is left with the difficult task of sifting through the Four Gospels for historical tradition."

- John P. Meier, "A Marginal Jew," vol. II, 5.

Here in this one quote Dr. Meier seems to cover the "four canonical Gospels," "Paul and Josephus," "apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material." Dr. Meier is a Catholic University New Testament professor, Catholic priest and monsignor.

So I'll ask you again, So, if you think Christian biblical scholars have primary source evidence that is convincing enough to withstand scrutiny then, LETS SEE IT? Otherwise, the Xian scholars in WWJ don't agree with you.
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Old 09-02-2008, 08:46 AM   #85
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Besides, that is not the only quote I've provided here - all together, make up the larger picture of the fact that even top Christian biblical scholars can't point to convincing evidence for the Jesus character of the bible.

Quote:
...Christian scholars over the centuries have admitted that ... "there are parallels between the Mysteries and Christianity"1 and that "the miracle stories of the Gospels do in fact parallel literary forms found in pagan and Jewish miracle stories,"2

..."According to Form Criticism the Gospels are more like folklore and myth than historical fact."3

1. Metzger, HLS, 8.

2. Meier, II, 536.

3. Geisler, CA, 320.

- WWJ (259)
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:00 AM   #86
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I don't think you're completely accurate and the quote itself demonstrates that:...
The quote continues to fail to provide support for the specific claims I have already identified. You are blustering rather than admitting your mistake.

You claimed that "... CHRISTIAN biblical scholars admitting that there's no evidence for Jesus that can stand up to peer review and scientific scrutiny.". None of your quotes support this assertion.

You claimed that "... popular Christian biblical authorities who largely represent mainstream scholarship do not agree that there is evidence for Jesus." None of your quotes support this assertion.

Meier and other Christian biblical scholars obviously do believe there is evidence supporting Jesus' existence and do find it convincing enough for them to hold that conclusion. If one reads more than selected exerpts, this is quite clear.

That you have quite clearly changed the nature of your claim suggests you recognize your earlier error whether you admit it or not.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:54 AM   #87
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Quote:
Amaleq13 "None of your quotes support this assertion."
Now, you're just being absurd and your denial to answer my question demonstrates that:

"So, if you think Christian biblical scholars have primary source evidence that is convincing enough to withstand scrutiny then, LETS SEE IT? Otherwise, the Xian scholars in WWJ don't agree with you."

Quote:
"apart from Josephus, Jewish literature of the early Christian period offers no independent sources for inquiry into the historical Jesus."

- Meier, I, 98

- WWJ (103)
Quote:
"Hide the prophecy, tell the narrative, and invent the history."

- Dr. John D. Crossan, The Historical Jesus (372)

- WWJ (123)
Quote:
"The Gospels are neither histories nor biographies, even within the ancient tolerances for those genres."

- Dr. John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus

- WWJ (24)
Quote:
"Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent upon these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic"

- F.F. Bruce, "New Testament History" (163) founder of the modern evangelical movement

- Who Was Jesus? page 84 (or via: amazon.co.uk)
:wave:
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:20 AM   #88
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Now, you're just being absurd and your denial to answer my question demonstrates that:
:rolling:

No, you are just trying to avoid admitting that your initial assertions are not actually supported by the quotes you offered. There is nothing "absurd" about pointing out that fact. Nor is there any "denial" involved (the word you should have used is "refusal") in ignoring a new question/assertion when my objection was specifically against your original assertions.

Quote:
Otherwise, the Xian scholars in WWJ don't agree with you.
This, however, continues to be false no matter how many times you blindly repeat it. I accept and tend to agree with every quote you have offered but none of them repeat or even support your clearly exaggerated assertions.

For example, recognizing that reliable evidence is "scanty and problematic" is not the same as claiming there is "no evidence". It is misleading and disingenuous to claim that the former statement is equivalent to the latter.
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Old 09-02-2008, 02:27 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave31 View Post
Quote:
Amaleq13 "None of your quotes support this assertion."
Now, you're just being absurd and your denial to answer my question demonstrates that:

"So, if you think Christian biblical scholars have primary source evidence that is convincing enough to withstand scrutiny then, LETS SEE IT? Otherwise, the Xian scholars in WWJ don't agree with you."


Quote:
"Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent upon these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic"

- F.F. Bruce, "New Testament History" (163) founder of the modern evangelical movement

- Who Was Jesus? page 84 (or via: amazon.co.uk)
One of the sure signs of poor/crank scholarship is:

1. lack of knowledge of the identity of the scholars one quotes; and

2. misrepresentation through selective quotation of what a scholar says in order to make it look like that scholar has said something he/she has not.

In what appears above, we have both signs. We have lack of knowledge of Bruce's identity in the attribution above that Bruce was the/a founder of the modern evangelical movement. Bruce was never the founder of any movement, let alone "the modern evangelical one". (Which one is that supposedly, I wonder? Can you tell us, David?)

And we also have a fine example in the above of misrepresentation through selective quotation of Bruce's words to make him appear to be agreeing with a point he does not agree with, and in fact was quite intent to dispute, on p. 163 of his New Testament History.

For what is not mentioned in the quote above is that immediately following the words "Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent on these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic" Bruce writes "So far as the wider Roman world is concerned, this is not surprising" and then goes on to say why methodologically and historiographically this lack of Roman evidence cannot be taken to mean that Jesus did not exist -- since it is exactly what we should expect.

Here's the full quote:

Quote:
Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent on these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic. So far as the wider Roman world is concerned, this is not surprising. Perhaps the situation can be illustrated by an episode of more recent times.

In the closing years of British rule in India some trouble was being caused in the Waziristan section of the North-West Frontier by a self-styled 'Champion of Islam" named Haji Mirza Ali Khan, Fakir of Ipi. He figured from time to time in the British and Indian press when he was engaged in upsetting the pax Britannica in those parts. Then for years be faded into oblivion, until his death was briefly announced in April, 1961. It is unlikely that be will play a prominent part in histories of the twentieth century.

The Fakir of Ipi was a holy man, and his devotees no doubt thought him a very important person indeed. If they had begun to propagate a cult in which he played a central part; if their mission had proved unexpectedly successful; if it had led to riots in Karachi and Delhi; if it had been carried to London and begun to cause trouble in the Indian and Pakistani communities of Britain-then the name of the Fakir of Ipi would have become familiar and ultimately found its way into historical writings. But such a process would require a little time.

Similarly in A.D. 3o the name and activity of Jesus of Nazareth would have meant no more to people living at the heart of the Roman world than the Fakir of Ipi meant to people in England. A religious leader who won a following by his claim to be a king, and who was conveniently executed, was no exceptional phenomenon in the Palestine of those days. But when his followers, claiming that he had risen from the dead, began to proclaim him as the Deliverer for whom the world was waiting, when their mission met with astonishing success, when it was carried not only to Antioch and Alexandria, but to Rome itself, and led to riots there, then the name of Christ (as the Gentiles called him ) and of his followers the Christians became familiar at the heart of the Roman Empire. But this process required a little time, And, while Christ and the Christians did ultimately come to be mentioned in Roman historical writing, the first Roman Iiterature~ in which we might expect to find any reference to them would be what we should call the police news. This is what in fact we find.
Now previously David intimated that he has read the works of all of the HJ scholars to whom AS refers and whom she quotes in WWJ? in their entirety. But if he has, how is he unaware that Bruce is not only not whom AS claims he was, but that she has selectively quoted him in order to make him say something that was not his point, let alone as intent to say something he was actually arguing against?

And if he hasn't, then he might want to think twice about whether he should place the confidence he does in AS' "scholarship", let alone in her trustworthiness to present accurately the views of the HJ scholars whose work she "quotes" on the matter of whether we have any evidence for the HJ.

For it is undeniable that she has misrepresented both who Bruce was and what he is intent to say on p. 163 of his NTH.

Doubtless, we'll find the same thing if we were to turn to Crossan and place the Crossan quotes that AS gives us in their proper context.

Jeffrey
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Old 09-02-2008, 02:52 PM   #90
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F.F. Bruce is listed in wikipedia as "one of the founders of the modern evangelical understanding of the Bible."

I can see how this error arose. It's not that important, except as an indicator of a certain lack of attention to detail, or lack of a good editor.

I think that Crossan is less sanguine about the quality of the proof for the existence of Jesus, but still accepts a historical Jesus.
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