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08-16-2008, 07:01 PM | #81 |
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It does not support your claim that "... CHRISTIAN biblical scholars admitting that there's no evidence for Jesus that can stand up to peer review and scientific scrutiny." nor your claim that "... popular Christian biblical authorities who largely represent mainstream scholarship do not agree that there is evidence for Jesus."
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09-01-2008, 06:42 PM | #82 | |
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I appreciate the points you're making Amaleq13 fair enough, but you seem to be missing the much larger picture here. You seem to be getting a little anal over one comment from one Catholic University New Testament professor, Catholic priest and monsignor, John P. Meier. This is not the only quote I've provided here:
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So, if you think Christian biblical scholars have primary source evidence that is convincing enough to withstand scrutiny then, LETS SEE IT? Otherwise, the Xian scholars in WWJ don't agree with you. |
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09-01-2008, 08:45 PM | #83 | ||
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09-02-2008, 07:52 AM | #84 | |
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"...there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits. Claims that later apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material supply independent and reliable historical information about Jesus are largely fantasy. In the end, the historian is left with the difficult task of sifting through the Four Gospels for historical tradition." - John P. Meier, "A Marginal Jew," vol. II, 5. Here in this one quote Dr. Meier seems to cover the "four canonical Gospels," "Paul and Josephus," "apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material." Dr. Meier is a Catholic University New Testament professor, Catholic priest and monsignor. So I'll ask you again, So, if you think Christian biblical scholars have primary source evidence that is convincing enough to withstand scrutiny then, LETS SEE IT? Otherwise, the Xian scholars in WWJ don't agree with you. |
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09-02-2008, 08:46 AM | #85 | |
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Besides, that is not the only quote I've provided here - all together, make up the larger picture of the fact that even top Christian biblical scholars can't point to convincing evidence for the Jesus character of the bible.
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09-02-2008, 09:00 AM | #86 | |
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You claimed that "... CHRISTIAN biblical scholars admitting that there's no evidence for Jesus that can stand up to peer review and scientific scrutiny.". None of your quotes support this assertion. You claimed that "... popular Christian biblical authorities who largely represent mainstream scholarship do not agree that there is evidence for Jesus." None of your quotes support this assertion. Meier and other Christian biblical scholars obviously do believe there is evidence supporting Jesus' existence and do find it convincing enough for them to hold that conclusion. If one reads more than selected exerpts, this is quite clear. That you have quite clearly changed the nature of your claim suggests you recognize your earlier error whether you admit it or not. |
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09-02-2008, 10:54 AM | #87 | |||||
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"So, if you think Christian biblical scholars have primary source evidence that is convincing enough to withstand scrutiny then, LETS SEE IT? Otherwise, the Xian scholars in WWJ don't agree with you." Quote:
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09-02-2008, 11:20 AM | #88 | ||
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No, you are just trying to avoid admitting that your initial assertions are not actually supported by the quotes you offered. There is nothing "absurd" about pointing out that fact. Nor is there any "denial" involved (the word you should have used is "refusal") in ignoring a new question/assertion when my objection was specifically against your original assertions. Quote:
For example, recognizing that reliable evidence is "scanty and problematic" is not the same as claiming there is "no evidence". It is misleading and disingenuous to claim that the former statement is equivalent to the latter. |
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09-02-2008, 02:27 PM | #89 | ||||
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1. lack of knowledge of the identity of the scholars one quotes; and 2. misrepresentation through selective quotation of what a scholar says in order to make it look like that scholar has said something he/she has not. In what appears above, we have both signs. We have lack of knowledge of Bruce's identity in the attribution above that Bruce was the/a founder of the modern evangelical movement. Bruce was never the founder of any movement, let alone "the modern evangelical one". (Which one is that supposedly, I wonder? Can you tell us, David?) And we also have a fine example in the above of misrepresentation through selective quotation of Bruce's words to make him appear to be agreeing with a point he does not agree with, and in fact was quite intent to dispute, on p. 163 of his New Testament History. For what is not mentioned in the quote above is that immediately following the words "Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent on these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic" Bruce writes "So far as the wider Roman world is concerned, this is not surprising" and then goes on to say why methodologically and historiographically this lack of Roman evidence cannot be taken to mean that Jesus did not exist -- since it is exactly what we should expect. Here's the full quote: Quote:
And if he hasn't, then he might want to think twice about whether he should place the confidence he does in AS' "scholarship", let alone in her trustworthiness to present accurately the views of the HJ scholars whose work she "quotes" on the matter of whether we have any evidence for the HJ. For it is undeniable that she has misrepresented both who Bruce was and what he is intent to say on p. 163 of his NTH. Doubtless, we'll find the same thing if we were to turn to Crossan and place the Crossan quotes that AS gives us in their proper context. Jeffrey |
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09-02-2008, 02:52 PM | #90 |
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F.F. Bruce is listed in wikipedia as "one of the founders of the modern evangelical understanding of the Bible."
I can see how this error arose. It's not that important, except as an indicator of a certain lack of attention to detail, or lack of a good editor. I think that Crossan is less sanguine about the quality of the proof for the existence of Jesus, but still accepts a historical Jesus. |
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