Sheshonq

No it doesn't.

1. The Qumran scrolls contain many texts that were not part of the Jewish canon then, and still are not part of it.

2. IIRC, the Qumran scrolls have a statistical window that is approx 200 years wide.

3. Additionally, not all the scrolls fall into the same statistical time window (like any library, some books are old, others are new).

You can't jump to the conclusion you're reaching for here.

Sheshonq

Hold on a moment. Post #133 was a post you made. You're trying to quote yourself here, as some kind of a reference. Nice try.

However, your source for post #133 is a christian apologetics website (www.apologeticspress.com) with an obvious bias and conflict of interest.

Which means that you still haven't presented any independent, scholarly evidence that the Qumran community accepted Daniel as part of their canon.

Sheshonq

Bold font on your own post reference - and the biased source you used - does not work. You still need an independent, unbiased source that says the Essene community considered Daniel part of the Jewish canon.*

* this is a trick question. Stick around to see why.

spin

The reason why I asked you to start with the indications in chapter 11 is because it is clear, unless you can deal with it better than I can. I will not argue on anything you decide to throw up in order not to deal with chapter 11. The material has been in this thread for a long time and it seems that you are prepared to stall in order to avoid it.

If we can deal with the one issue we can proceed to the others.


I would propose to all who are discussing Daniel to hold on discussing other sections and proceed the following way, if possible.

1. Stabilize the significance of ch.11. (Is it the struggle between the Seleucids and Ptolemies?)
2. Clarify the vision in ch.8. (There is a fair amount of agreement on some of the material, so can we work out the rest?)
3. From the relationship between chapters 8 & 11 see how ch.9 fits the context.
4. Link the little horn in ch.8 with that in ch.7, work out the end point in that chapter and how it fits with the other visions.

This should show the unity of the visions section of Daniel. It will also show that the statue dream in ch.2 was written earlier and lacks the tangibly catastrophic characteristics of the final phases of each of the visions.


spin

spin

It is obvious that the community that deposited the scrolls at Qumran accepted Daniel: there are eight copies (palaeographically, 4 from the Hasmonean and 4 from Herodian periods*) to indicate this as well as other Danielic literature. A community doesn't keep texts that it doesn't accept.

(* "Hasmonean" is used to indicate 150-30 BCE according to Flint, "The Daniel Tradition at Qumran", in Eschatology, Messianism and the Dead Sea Scrolls, Eerdmans, 1997.)

The Essene community had nothing to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Essenes were excluded from the temple and did not favor bloodlines, yet the most important people in the Dead Sea Scrolls were the temple high priests, the sons of Zadok, killing the Essene theory on two grounds. The Essene community stuff is based on a dead consensus of the international team working on the scrolls in the 1950s and 1960s. It's now a zombie.

The Dead Sea Scrolls represent a temple centered community.


spin

sugarhitman

1. Ch.11 deals with both Antichus and Anti-Christ.
2. Ch.8 deals with the rise of Greece and it's division. The beast comes out from one of the location of the 4 horns.
3.Ch.9. Restoration of Israel, coming Messiah,death of the Messiah, destruction of the temple and Israel by the Romans, rise of the Beast.
4. The horn of Ch.8 comes out from one of the Greek kingdoms, and rises during the 4th kingdom. The horn of Ch. 8 and 7 is the Roman peoples and its coming prince....it is the "[people] of the [prince that shall come]" who "shall destroy the the city and the sanctuary" The Roman-Greco peoples... The Europeans.

In revelations the various beasts kingdoms are united into one Global Government headed by the ten horns (Europeans) and the beast (the Beast). The text makes it clear that this global government will be hostile to both the church in Israel (144,000 Jewish Christian witnesses and Jewish converts) and the Gentile church (those who will reject the mark and the Beast). It is when they trample Jerusalem and the Holy place, the Messiah returns to trample them. This is the one like the Son of Man coming with the clouds who will destroy the 4th beast and rule the world and the stone that causes the Statue to collaspe in Daniel. Why? According to the text because of the treatment of the Jews and Christians who according to Daniel and Revelations will be targets of persecution in this Global World Goverment. And their quest to destroy Jerusalem. It appears that this is happening now. Both Jews and Christians are greatly hated and scorned. Paul says that when the rejection of the truth (Gospel) becomes wide spread, the beast will rise to decieve the earth using as evidence what the unbelievers desire, miracles such as "calling down fire from the heavens in the sight of men to decieve the whole earth."

This is why I believe Jesus cautions about putting such faith in signs and wonders, and to believe what he says because we know what he says is right concerning right and wrong....believe in him because of his rightousness and accurate predictions about Him (. (this is a response to Johnny) He makes it clear that "Those who are of the truth shall hear My voice" Yes truth has a way of penetrating an honest heart....those who are of the truth does not depend on signs and miracles to believe the truth....they believe it because they know it is right. :wave:

spin

Umm, "Antichus"? ...Oh, I see.

Sorry, sugarhitman. This was not an opportunity for you to blurt out your prepackaged rubbish. In fact it was not aimed at you because the task I was proposing is too difficult for you to deal with. It required you to make an analysis of the material I posted here on Dan 11 first. If you can find a historical context that covers the data from Dan 11 better than that which I have outlined, then you can play too. But from your track record you will prove yourself totally unprepared for the task.


spin

arnoldo

Bear with me I'm doing research on your questions. I'm just arguing that Daniel is prophetic from a different line of reasoning. Consider The Epistle of Barnabas which states, “ This is further argument that the book of daniel was considered as canon as well as that the fourth beast was the roman empire and not the greek empire.

spin

Hindsight can give funny ideas. When the original context is lost, material often gets reinterpreted. I can happily give you a historical analysis of the fourth beast, but I think we'll be at an impasse with ch.7 at the moment, so I feel it's best to establish some solid ground that we may be able to agree on, and that could be ch.11. You will remember that I said that all four visions are interrelated, so we can certainly deal with the ones like four beasts and the one like a son of man.

But first things first. If you can find a better historical context than the Syrian Wars and the persecution of the Jews by Antiochus, I will have to rethink my analysis. If you can't you should be able to accept it as functional and we can use what we learn to analyze the other visions. Does that make sense? If so, I'll look forward to your comments.


spin

Sheshonq

Here is the count of mss. from Wikipedia:
Psalms 39
Deuteronomy 33
1 Enoch 25
Genesis 24
Isaiah 22
Jubilees 21
Exodus 18
Leviticus 17
Numbers 11
Minor Prophets 10
Daniel 8
Jeremiah 6
Ezekiel 6
Job 6
1 & 2 Samuel 4

Eight mss. for Daniel doesn't seem to be that impressive. In addition, a non-canonical book (Jubilees) has 21 mss. I don't thing that looking at number of mss. is a reliable way to establish the concept of Jewish canon at Qumran.

I'm also reading this at the moment - the paragraph in the middle of the page that begins "The scrolls are equally powerless" seems appropriate to this discussion.