PhilosopherJay

Hi Johnny Skeptic,

Yes, it is the evidence that really has to be examined. Let us take five statements:

1) Neil Armstrong flew to the moon.

2) Tom Hanks flew to the moon.

3) Marilyn Monroe flew to the moon

4) Superman flew to the moon

5) Oliver Twist flew to the moon

#1) Neil Armstrong' trip to the moon is a remarkably well documented historical event. We can easily find thousands of books, magazines and newspapers that reference and talk about the event.

2) Tom Hanks is an historical person. In the movie "Apollo 13" (1995) he does fly to the moon, or at least attempts to fly to the moon. Here things are a bit tricky. Within the movie story, the character Jim Lovell (a real historical person) does fly to the moon. Tom Hanks is a real historical person playing a real historical person. History, Tom Hanks did not fly to the moon, but pretended to be an historical person who did fly to the moon. It is correct to say that while Tom Hanks is an historical person, he never flew to the moon, but did so within a fictional story. I could show you the DVD or movie reviews to prove this.

3) Marilyn Monroe was a real historical person, but she never made a movie where she goes to the moon. The person is historical, but the statement is fictional. I can produce thousands of magazine and newspaper stories and DVDs for Monroe's existence. I could not produce any evidence for her trip to the moon, either historical or fictional

4) Superman is a fictional character. He did fly to the moon in the September 1950 (Superman #66), comic book story, "The Last Days of Superman". Historically, it is not true that there was a Superman or that he flew to the moon. However, it is true historically that there is a story of the fictional character flying to the moon. I could show you the comic book to prove this.

5) Oliver Twist is a fictional character created by Charles Dickens. There is no story of him flying to the moon. This would be a fictional statement. I could not produce any evidence for it.

It seems to me that Jesus of Nazareth going to a real city like Jerusalem is similar to case #4.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

arnoldo

You raise a good point. Alexander the Great was a historical person, yet there was mythological attributes given to him, i.e,. cutting the gordian knot, being the son of a god, etc. The following article gives the hypothesis that perhaps even Alexander believed his own divinity.

Johnny Skeptic

Good, then you admit that even if the disciples travelled to certain real cities, that does not necessarily mean that they performed miracles.

Johnny Skeptic

In other words, you are implying an analogy that the disciples believed that they saw Jesus before and after he rose from the dead, but that does not have anything to do with this thread. Please start a new thread and provide whatever evidence you have that each disciple, individually, saw Jesus after he rose from the dead, and never recanted his faith. You will not be able to provide that evidence.

By the way, since I have never said that a historical Jesus did not exist, I do not have any idea why you keep bringing it up. A historical Muhammad existed, but the Koran is false. Joseph Smith existed, but the Book of Mormon is false. Even if Jesus existed, the Bible is false. The existence of a historical Jesus might reduce the odds that a God inspired the Bible from virtually zero to one in one vigintillion (1 plus 63 zeros), and that would be very generous.

arnoldo

It hasn't been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Johnny Skeptic

Since when does winning a debate depend upon proving something beyond a shadow of a doubt? If you have evidence that the disciples performed miracles, please post it.

arnoldo

The only way we would know for certain if an event happened in the distant past would be to build a time machine and see it for ourselves. In the case of Alexander the Great it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he existed.

Johnny Skeptic

Yes, but it has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the disciples performed miracles. Do you have any non-biblical evidence that the disciples performed miracles? I assume that you don't.

Do you have any evidence that the authors of Matthew, Mark, or Luke claimed to be eyewitnesses? I assume that you don't.

Do you have any credible first century, non-biblical evidence that says that Jesus performed miracles? I assume that you don't.

Do you have any evidence other than faith that the God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth, that a localized flood occured that killed everyone in the area of the flood except for Noah's group, that a donkey talked, that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus was born of a virgin, that Jesus never sinnned, that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, and that Jesus was buried in Joseph of Arimathaea's tomb? I assume that you don't.

arnoldo

It has not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt how life originated on earth either.

aa5874

But, the origin of life on earth have nothing whatsoever to do with the miracles in the NT.

There is really no need to examine every single claim of a miracle when it cannot be shown that miracles as described in the NT could have ever happened.

I do not swim in all the oceans, seas, lakes, ponds, rivers, streams to prove that mermaids do not exist.

Mermaids are biologically impossible. Those who believe mermaids exist can go swimming, likewise those who believe the miracles in the NT did happen can perhaps go to Haiti see if any faith healer has raised a single dead or cured a minor bruise.