Cege

The apologist explanation for cruxifiction and burial on Friday evening is that death on Friday constitutes one day, death during Saturday constitutes 2 days, and death into any part of Sunday constitutes 3 days. 3 "days" (as determined by 1st century Jewish timing) in the grave, but not 3 days and 3 nights as we'd time it today.

For the formula/promise/prediction to work in 3 days AND 3 nights, Jesus would have had to be buried before Friday.

Maybe I'm missing something...who interprets a scripture/s as saying Jesus rose on Saturday/Sabbath?

Steven Avery

The quick short answer .. those who look for a Wednesday afternoon crucifixion and an end-of-shabbat (as the new sunset came .. 'dawned' .. to the first day of the week, which by general Jewish reckoning is the start of a day at sunset) resurrection. John has given some arguments worth considering against this view.

Shalom,
Steven

dongiovanni1976x

What year do these folks think that Passover fell on a Thursday? Sir Robert Anderson's,"The Coming Prince" (a Christian source) even demonstrates that Passover fell on the following dates (the abbr day after each is the technical day the meal would be eaten:

But since we know that Jesus ministry last at least from 29-31AD (Lk 3:1 + John 2, 6, & 11), the earliest Passover that he could have been killed during would have been 31AD. Additionally we know that Pilate was recalled before March 16th 37AD for a particular Sarmatian incident (Antiq 18.4.2) which preceded the Passover of that year (the only Thursday left to choose from).
So where does this idea of a Thursday (HIGH) Passover come from?

Cege

Maybe the inofrmation in the above quote is a source of my confusion. Sunsets 'set' the sun and sunrises 'dawn' the sun. The new day started by Jewish reckoning at sunset, and sunrise was right in the middle of each day. Right?

dongiovanni1976x

Yes. Because in Genesis God created and separated night from day and saw that it was good. Darkness came before light.

Steven Avery

Hi Cege,

However in the Wed-Sat scenario sunset also 'dawns' (begins) the new day.

One key verse seems to allow for that -

Matthew 28:1
In the end of the sabbath,
as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week,
came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

However John gave a verse above where this idea is more difficult
in the Greek. I have not really seen any discussion on this, how
the Wed-Sat folks would relate to this verse implying the sun coming
up, according to the Greek view.

Luke 24:22
Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished,
which were early at the sepulchre;

That is the common understanding. There are some folks who look at the Tanach and have a different view of the 'day'. Hmmm.. I do wonder if that came up in the Karaite controversies.

Shalom,
Steven

Steven Avery

The question is .. can we be sure of these dates? Anderson is very possibly working off the fixed Jewish calendar, which Hillel II established in the 4th century. Is Anderson extrapolating backwards that calendar's calcuation methodology ? If so, is there any evidence supporting that method at that time ? Might there have been observation used in the 1st century ? Should we check the daily weather charts ?

(This is separate from any other questions about "The Coming Prince" - the real question is whether we can be sure of any chart of the Passover days of that time.)

Shalom,
Steven

-Jay-

Look up some of his other posts and ask the question again.

regards,

NinJay

Larsguy47

Absolutely. Not understanding the festival as a whole is one of the problems. You must see this as if you were Jewish. Passover was two major special sabbath days. The Jews left Egypt on the 15th of the month, but that was the same night that they ate passover. So if you change the date at sundown like some presume to do, then passover is eaten on a sabbath day and the 15th. But technically the CALENDAR DATE did not change until midnight. Midnight began a new DATE and a new "morning." Thus the command "not to leave anything until morning" was a reference to midnight.

Midnight is when the angel of death arrived. Partaking of passover was symbolic of salvation. After the angel of death had come and gone that significance was over. Thus the Sedar ceremony is specifically over at midnight. And that is the specifric tradition clearly outlined by the Jewish procedure in the Mishna.

Additionally, this thus involves the concept of the sabbath day or the secular day versus the calendar date. So occasionally for clarity, when the holiday was the focus, such as the day of atonement or the first day of unfermented cakes, the Bible is specific to begin those days starting in the evening of the previous day.

Notice referring to the day of atonement:

Lev. 23: 27 “However, on the tenth of this seventh month is the day of atonement. A holy convention should take place for YOU, and YOU must afflict YOUR souls and present an offering made by fire to Jehovah."

And then this further, more specific clarification:

Lev. 23:32 It is a sabbath of complete rest for YOU, and YOU must afflict YOUR souls on the ninth of the month in the evening."

It's exactly as it is now. Everybody knows Saturdays are the sabbath, but that it begins on Friday after sundown. As far as the calendar is concerned, the sabbath may be on the 14th but technically the Jews begin to celebration on the 13th, "in the evening."

Now the same goes for passover. The first day of unfermented cakes, which has a solemn assembly on the 15th, likely at noon, is a special sabbath day, but it begins the previous date in the evening. Thus the first day of unfermented cakes as noted in Exodus 12:

18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening YOU are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening."

The habit of beginning the solar date/calendar date was a custom they brought from Egypt who began the calendar date at midnight as well.

But having noted that, it's easy to understand that the lambs are sacrificed around 3 pm on the 14th, and then at sundown it becomes a sabbath day of the 1st day of unfermented cakes. It's still the 14th technically until midnight. They celebrate the meal until then and at midnight it becomes the 15th, still a special sabbath day. Thus Jesus was arrested on Saturday, Nisan 15th. He could not have been impaled at that time.

Yet we find Jesus in the tomb for "three nights" but rising one day after a sabbath and being placed into the tomb one day before a sabbath. For that to occur you need two sabbath days in a row. That is precisely what occurs in 33 CE when Friday the 21st, the 7th day of unfermented cakes, followed by the regular Saturday occur.

Finally, when Jesus is resurrected on the 23rd, and is still around for 40 days, Pentecost occurs 3 days after he ascends to heaven, not 10 days when we incorrectly date his resurrection the Sunday after the Sedar celebration.

Since it is clear that it was a Thursday, a special "passover sabbath" that is called a "high sabbath" or possibly because of the double sabbath it was called a "great sabbath" that term needs to be a reference to either of those concepts.

LG47

Larsguy47

Technically, the influence of the Egyptians about the revolution of the sun is in play here. They understood the sun to travel in a circle around the earth. Thus the concept of when the sun began to "rise" was at midnight. This was morning. A second concept was at sunrise, which was another concept of morning. So there were two concept of morning, just as we have today. Only we call the morning that beings at midnight as the "early morning" hours. Likewise, the sun begins to wane and "set" at noon. So that is the first evening at noon. But a second generic concept of the evening was at sunset. So likewise, you have two concepts of "evening", one at noon and one at sunset.

The Jew broke up their day into "watches" of 3 hours each. Thus to describe the time of the day at 3:00 p.m. they just called it "between the two evenings," that is, halfway between noon and sunset. The two evenings are noon and sunset.

Once this is understood and you realize that passover Seder is eaten from sundown to midnight on the same sabbath day of the 1st day of unfermented cakes, the actual day the Jews leave Egypt on the 15th (because it was after midnight) then you understand there is no other choice but to date Jesus' death at the next day of preparation, which was Thursday, Nisan 20th.

LG47