Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dirge · 01-02-2008, 11:12 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyrhynchus
Oxyrhynchus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They obviously kept the same kind of records back in the olden days as they do today. I wouldn't bet the farm that direct evidence of a more substantial nature regarding a historical Jesus won't show up someday.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-02-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

The fact is that people simply didn't think that way back then.

They didn't? Can you tell me what the nature and extent of your familiarity is with Greco Roman cultural and philosophical history that allows you to say this so confidently and apodictically?

Quote:

Show one instance where anyone in the ancient world, Roman or otherwise, went about proving that any god didn't exist.

Umm, there's Anaxagoras, Strato, Epicurus, Lucretius, Euhemerus, Theodorus of Cyrne, Prodicus, Lucian, and (probably -- on this see Jonathan Barnes, The Presocratic Philosophers (or via: amazon.co.uk)) Democritus, Xenophanes. and Leucippus.

Quote:

Even the most learned of people believed in fantastic things back then, and there simply was no means of or sense of verifiability or historical rigor as we know it today.

Better tell that to Thucydides or to Lucian whose essay on "How to Write History" I take it you are not familiar with.

Jeffrey

Sheshbazzar · 01-02-2008, 11:45 AM

That used to be my thought, now I would bet the farm.
More than that, I am betting my life that there was no historical "Jesus" and that no genuine evidence of the existence of any such person will ever be found. (and not by any other name either)

Doug Shaver · 01-02-2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirge

The Romans tried to stamp out Xianity.

When did this happen, and how do we know it happened then?

At that time, what readily accessible evidence would any Roman official have had of Jesus' nonexistence?

Toto · 01-02-2008, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrZoidberg

...
Sorry. It wasn't my attempt to dodge it. No, I heard an interview with some body on it on "Point of Enquiry". I posted the wiki link with the faith that the guy in the interview wasn't lying.

This is just me from memory. He said that what they did was to start with the assumption that Jesus doesn't exist and then work from there. The object wasn't to disprove Jesuses existence but rather that if they found evidence then it would have value. If they would attack it from the other direction which is what most Christian scholars have done so far then all their gathered evidence would be very hard to use. But that said, it's pretty clear that the members of the Jesus seminar are all devout Christians and very much want god to be real.

What you describe sounds like Joseph Hoffman on "The Jesus Project." The Jesus Project is not the same as the Jesus Seminar, although in some senses it is an attempt to continue the work of the Jesus Seminar with some of the same participants. I have been trying to find out the status of the JP.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-02-2008, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Crow

My observation is that xanity wasn't that important as a religion until Constantine.

Leaving aside the question of what you mean by, and how you define "important", tell that to Maximin, Decius, Diocletian, and Galerius (cue Pete Brown to ride his hobby horse).

Quote:

He is the one who routed out all opposing views and did it with great efficiency.

He did? Then why was it still a live option in Theodosius' time?

It is little known that one of the first things he did was tear down the Asclepius temples.

All of them? Can you document this? So far as I am aware, Constantine destroyed only one -- at Aigeai Cilicia, and this upon the suggestion of his mother.

Quote:

It is also little known that the "model" they used for the Jesus myth was heavily drawn on Asclepius as well. Asclepius was the only Greek god taken on by the Romans and he was often referred to as The Rock

The only one???

And could you please document your claim -- with actual citations from primary sources Asclepius was ever, let alone often, "referred to as the Rock"?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-02-2008, 12:47 PM

[QUOTE=Malachi151;5066601]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirge

The fact is that people simply didn't think that way back then. "Proving that a god didn't exist"? Show one instance where anyone in the ancient world, Roman or otherwise, went about proving that any god didn't exist.

Well this seems to fit the bill.

Sisyphos: There was a time when human life was without order
and bestial and subject to brute force,
when there was neither any reward for the noble
nor any punishment for the base.
And then, I think, men established
punitive laws, so that Justice would be sovereign
<...> and have Hybris as her subject.
Whoever did wrong was punished.
Next, now that the laws kept people from
openly committing violent deeds
but they still did them secretly, at that time I think
<...> some man of shrewd and clever intelligence
hit upon the idea of inventing gods for mortals, so
the base would have something to fear even when
they acted or spoke or thought secretly.
So, building on this he taught that the Divine
was a supernatural being thriving with unending life,
with the power of intellect listening, watching, contemplating,
and attending to these acts and possessing a divine nature,
one who would hear everything said among mortals
and be able to see everything that was done.
If you plan something base, even without breathing a word of it,
it will not escape the notice of the gods; for understanding
<...> is theirs. Giving these explanations,
he taught a most agreeable lesson,
confounding the truth with a false story.
He said that the gods dwelled in the place
that would most astonish men when talked about,
the place he realized mortals derive their fears from,
and their life of suffering draws its delights—
from the circling firmament above, where he discerned
there were the flashes of lightning and terrible crashes
of thunder and the starry brightness of heaven,
a beautiful tapestry of the wise creator Time.
From there the gleaming falling star blazes,
and the wet rainstorm pours out onto the earth.
He hedged men in with such terrible
fears, and with his story he neatly gave
the divinity a home in a fitting location
and doused lawlessness with these fears of his.
<...>
In this way, I think, someone first convinced
mortals to believe that a race of gods existed.

Now the interesting thing about this is that it comes from the late 5th century BCE writer Critias.

So .. do you still want to claim that people "back then" didn't think like moderns do?

Jeffrey

Toto · 01-02-2008, 01:56 PM

Some unproductive posts have been split off here

Malachi151 · 01-02-2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Umm .. have you read, or done any work in the critical commentaries on, Mk. 12:1-13?

Jeffrey

Mark 12 says God will destroy the Jews???

Wow!

Without even looking, I think he's talking about the parable of the Wicked Tenants, so, um.. yes....

Malachi151 · 01-02-2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

The fact is that people simply didn't think that way back then.

They didn't? Can you tell me what the nature and extent of your familiarity is with Greco Roman cultural and philosophical history that allows you to say this so confidently and apodictically?

Umm, there's Anaxagoras, Strato, Epicurus, Lucretius, Euhemerus, Theodorus of Cyrne, Prodicus, Lucian, and (probably -- on this see Jonathan Barnes, The Presocratic Philosophers (or via: amazon.co.uk)) Democritus, Xenophanes. and Leucippus.

Quote:

Even the most learned of people believed in fantastic things back then, and there simply was no means of or sense of verifiability or historical rigor as we know it today.

Better tell that to Thucydides or to Lucian whose essay on "How to Write History" I take it you are not familiar with.

Jeffrey

Yes, I am of course familiar with these figures. None of them engaged in a systematic forensic investigation to disprove the existence of various heroes such as Hercules, etc., they engaged in generalized philosophical arguments against the gods.

Feel free to prove me wrong, but I know of no example of someone, for instance, taking the story of Hercules and dissecting it and showing that he couldn't have been a certain place at a certain time, etc.

We aren't talking about philosophical arguments here, but rather evidentiary proofs.

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01-02-2008, 11:12 AM	#51
Dirge Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northwest Washington Posts: 292	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyrhynchus Oxyrhynchus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia They obviously kept the same kind of records back in the olden days as they do today. I wouldn't bet the farm that direct evidence of a more substantial nature regarding a historical Jesus won't show up someday.

01-02-2008, 11:45 AM	#53
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	That used to be my thought, now I would bet the farm. More than that, I am betting my life that there was no historical "Jesus" and that no genuine evidence of the existence of any such person will ever be found. (and not by any other name either)

01-02-2008, 01:56 PM	#58
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Some unproductive posts have been split off here

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