Amaleq13

I think you shared a link for this before. It is a rather difficult concept to describe in words but some of the illustrations helped.

Doctor X

You mean like these gnomes?

Anyways, methinks Lk and Mt created their own birth stories to serve their needs. One problem for a Mk Junior who may have his "divinity revealed" or "attained" at the baptism and then transfiguration is that it implies he was "normal human" before.

Not good enough . . . he had to be "special" from the beginning. Lk and Mk just create different stories like they created different genealogies. Sure . . . one or both of them could have had a "proto-birth narrative" some place, but, as far as I know, the language of the story is consistent with the rest of the respective gospels.

--J.D.

Amos

Jesus was both human and divine and therefore was already two persona's (sp.?) on his own. With the descend of the dove the third person no longer existed as intermediary between the two and was no longer needed because the "father and I" had just become one but with little understanding of each other thusfar.

The Gosples, of course, take place in Purgatory and that is what Purgatory is all about. Mary is really the third the person available to Jesus to draw from (see Mary and Martha parable) and will crown her queen of heaven and earth when he gets to heaven himself. (No trinity in heaven where all is clear).

Mary always was in charge of the HS (Queen of angels) and called the pigeon to land after the "two had become one."

Edited to add that in my ealier post I should have stated that Joseph called his shepherds to become apostles because they were his old eidetic images now (after metanoia) called towards a better use.

rlcjhardesty

The wise men were not at the nativity. They came later - Matthew Chapter 2

9) After this interview the wise men went their way. Once again the star appeared to them, guiding them to Bethlehem. It went ahead of them and stopped over the place where the child was.

11) They entered the house where the child and his mother, Mary, were, and they fell down before him and worshiped him.

16) Herod was furious when he learned that the wise men had
outwitted him. He sent soldiers to kill all the boys in and around Bethlehem who were two years old and under, because the wise men had told him the star first appeared to them about two years earlier

Amos

That's an interesting thought and suggests that rebirth from above is already initiated 2 years before it actually happens. I would say that this is a rather long incubation period and sure does not say much for the sola scriptura method of salvation.

CX

The NA27 uses the word MAGOI in GMt 2. The root is MAGOS, "magus", which was the title given by the Babylonians, Persians and others for "wise man", "teacher", "seer", "astrologer" etc. Basically it is a reference to some Perso-Iranian spiritual leaders. In the period in question, those in the Roman empire emphasized antiquity and eastern origin of religions as authoritative and/or authenticating. Roman Mithraism, though a relatively new invention with no apparent relation to Zoroastrianism nonetheless identified their religion with the Zoroastrian god Mitras to lend it credibility. I think the intent of AMt was to show that even the respect religious leaders of the ancient Perso-Iranian cults recognized the spiritual significance of Jesus' birth.

godfry n. glad

This is congruent with my thought processes on this issue. It would seem to me that this must be some kind of post-Judaic addition to an earlier narrative, tacked on to lend credibility to the creed at a critical juncture in it's development. ...To make it more "palatable" and "enticing" to gentiles.

But then, I wonder that it actually might be subsumed within the Judaic tradition, as a slap at the contemporary authority structure of the Temple priesthood. A criticism, as it were, of the same. As such it would harken to the Isaiahan prophetic tradition where the Persians (magi) oversaw the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem, at the direction of the previous "Christ," Cyrus, some four centuries earlier.

Ergo, the representatives of the previous Christ acknowledge the importance of the new Christ.

Just pondering as to the import of the inclusion within the narrative. It must have had some, for it leads into one of the biggest literal lies in the New Testament....Herod's slaughter of the innocents. Why unnecessarily slander an imperious autocrat, who, from all indications of his regular behavior, had no need of such. (I know, I know...because the narrator _could_, given Herod's already bad reputation.)

godfry

CX

Another possible angle, one which I think may be advanced by some scholars, is that AMt is making a point about the wilfull blindness of the Jews who rejected Jesus' program. (i.e. even a bunch of pagan priests recognized the import of Jesus' birth.)

Llyricist

wise guys?? heh heh

I get a picture of a couple of Italian American "gentlemen" showing up at the manger;

Wise Guy 1:'Scuse us ma'am, but da boss sent us to pay his respects on dis, da day of your baby's birth, and ta give ya this Rolex watch, this Frankenstein...

Wise Guy 2: pssst that's frankinCENSE...

Wise Guy 1: errr yeah, what he said....and dis bomb....

Wise Guy 2: no dat's BALM!

Wise guy 1: yeah da kind dat don't go boom.... anyhow when youse accept these gifts, you gotta remember dat sometime later da boss will want youse son to do a "favah", and he will be obliged to do it ya know.......



Actually the_cave, they WERE astrologers back then, though they studied far more the movements of the heavenly bodies than what we call an astrologer today (and far less involved with horoscopes), they still did believe that those movements affected earthly life.

Another angle on the story is that they were introduced to give credence to the idea that Jesus would be the ruler of the new age, at that time the age of Pisces was just beginning much as the age of aquarius is dawning now.

rlogan

That whacky star - first leading them West to Jerusalem and then turning South to Bethlehem.

yeah. Must be wiser than Herod. Cuz Herod has to ask the wise men how long the Star has been around.

I guess Herod and his wise men don't look up in the sky much.