Ben C Smith

Quite common among certain groups. GDon will be thrilled! He has been politely asking for months for evidence of this nature. I for one cannot wait to see what you have.

Ben.

Gregg

It's actually right in front of your faces, but you can't acknowledge it if you regard all first and second century so-called "Christian" literature as part of some unified faith movement. I pointed G'Don to the writings of the Sethian Gnostics http://jdt.unl.edu/lithist.html. You might take a closer look at the Ascension of Isaiah, the Similitudes of Enoch, and the writings of many of the second century apologists. In Paul and the epistles themselves you have the evidence for the addition of a new element to the descending redeemer belief, that of the redeemer being crucified. Paul defends his belief against those who preach an uncrucified Christ, which makes little sense if the whole movement began with a historical crucifixion and its aftermath.

Ben C Smith

In the Ascension of Isaiah, the son dies on earth. This is quite plain from all three versions of the text. The Ascension of Isaiah offers nothing along the lines of a god descending to a material world that is not earth.

I am rather familiar with the Enochian literature. How do the similitudes help you?

Ah, I thought you finally had pagan evidence. That is really what GDon has been asking for.

Ben.

Chris Weimer

So does this need amending?

Chris Weimer

Oh, oh, I certainly read that wrong. But I guess this is why I'm not a lawyer...

Gregg

Doherty has discussed and debated AoI rather exhaustively with G'Don in the past; why rehash his arguments when you can read them for yourself:

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/DebatesAscension.htm

1. Wisdom found no place where she might dwell;
Then a dwelling-place was assigned her in the heavens.

2 Wisdom went forth to make her dwelling among the children of men,
And found no dwelling-place:

Wisdom returned to her place,
And took her seat among the angels.

3 And unrighteousness went forth from her chambers:
Whom she sought not she found,
And dwelt with them, p. 62

As rain in a desert
And dew on a thirsty land.

This is the son of Man who hath righteousness,
With whom dwelleth righteousness,
And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden,

Because the Lord of Spirits hath chosen him,
And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before the Lord of Spirits in uprightness for ever.

4, And this Son of Man whom thou hast seen
Shall �*raise up�* the kings and the mighty from their seats,
[And the strong from their thrones]

And shall loosen the reins of the strong,
And break the teeth of the sinners.

5. [And he shall put down the kings from their thrones and kingdoms]
Because they do not extol and praise Him,
Nor humbly acknowledge whence the kingdom was bestowed upon them.
6. And he shall put down the countenance of the strong,
And shall fill them with shame.

And darkness shall be their dwelling,
And worms shall be their bed,
And they shall have no hope of rising from their beds,
Because they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits.

7. And these are they who �*judge�* the stars of heaven,
[And raise their hands against the Most High],
�*And tread upon the earth and dwell upon it�*.

And all their deeds manifest unrighteousness,
And their power rests upon their riches, p. 65
And their faith is in the �*gods�* which they have made with their hands,
And they deny the name of the Lord of Spirits,

8. And they persecute the houses of His congregations,
And the faithful who hang upon the name of the Lord of Spirits.

1. And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness
Which was inexhaustible:
And around it were many fountains of wisdom;

And all the thirsty drank of them,
And were filled with wisdom,
And their dwellings were with the righteous and holy and elect.
2. And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And his name before the Head of Days.

3. Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.

4. He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,
And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.

5. All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him,
And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.

6. And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him,
Before the creation of the world and for evermore.

7. And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;
For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,
Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,
And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits: p. 67
For in his name they are saved,
And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.

8. In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become,
And the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands;

For on the day of their anguish and affliction they shall not (be able to) save themselves.
9. And I will give them over into the hands of Mine elect:

As straw in the fire so shall they burn before the face of the holy:
As lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous,
And no trace of them shall any more be found.

10. And on the day of their affliction there shall be rest on the earth,
And before them they shall fall and not rise again:

And there shall be no one to take them with his hands and raise them:
For they have denied the Lord of Spirits and His Anointed.
The name of the Lord of Spirits be blessed.

l. For wisdom is poured out like water,
And glory faileth not before him for evermore.

2. For he is mighty in all the secrets of righteousness,
And unrighteousness shall disappear as a shadow,
And have no continuance;
Because the Elect One standeth before the Lord of Spirits,
And his glory is for ever and ever,
And his might unto all generations. p. 68

3. And in him dwells the spirit of wisdom,
And the spirit which gives insight,
And the spirit of understanding and of might,
And the spirit of those who have fallen asleep in righteousness.

4. And he shall judge the secret things,
And none shall be able to utter a lying word before him;
For he is the Elect One before the Lord of Spirits according to His good pleasure.

1. And thus the Lord commanded the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell on the earth, and said: 'Open your eyes and lift up your horns if ye are able to recognize the Elect One.'

2. And the Lord of Spirits seated him on the throne of His glory,
And the spirit of righteousness was poured out upon him,
And the word of his mouth slays all the sinners,
And all the unrighteous are destroyed from before his face.
3. And there shall stand up in that day all the kings and the mighty,
And the exalted and those who hold the earth,
And they shall see and recognize How he sits on the throne of his glory,
And righteousness is judged before him,
And no lying word is spoken before him.

4. Then shall pain come upon them as on a woman in travail,
[And she has pain in bringing forth]
When her child enters the mouth of the womb,
And she has pain in bringing forth.

5. And one portion of them shall look on the other,
And they shall be terrified,
And they shall be downcast of countenance,
And pain shall seize them,
When they see that Son of Man Sitting on the throne of his glory.

p. 82

6. And the kings and the mighty and all who possess the earth shall bless and glorify and extol him who rules over all, who was hidden.

7. For from the beginning the Son of Man was hidden,
And the Most High preserved him in the presence of His might,
And revealed him to the elect.

8. And the congregation of the elect and holy shall be sown,
And all the elect shall stand before him on that day.

9. And all the kings and the mighty and the exalted and those who rule the earth
Shall fall down before him on their faces,
And worship and set their hope upon that Son of Man,
And petition him and supplicate for mercy at his hands.

10. Nevertheless that Lord of Spirits will so press them
That they shall hastily go forth from His presence,
And their faces shall be filled with shame,
And the darkness grow deeper on their faces.
11. And He will deliver them to the angels for punishment,
To execute vengeance on them because they have oppressed His children and His elect
12. And they shall be a spectacle for the righteous and for His elect:
They shall rejoice over them,
Because the wrath of the Lord of Spirits resteth upon them,
And His sword is drunk with their blood.
13. And the righteous and elect shall be saved on that day,
And they shall never thenceforward see the face of the sinners and unrighteous. p. 83

14. And the Lord of Spirits will abide over them,
And with that Son of Man shall they eat
And lie down and rise up for ever and ever.

15. And the righteous and elect shall have risen from the earth,
And ceased to be of downcast countenance.

And they shall have been clothed with garments of glory,
16. And these shall be the garments of life from the Lord of Spirits:
And your garments shall not grow old,
Nor your glory pass away before the Lord of Spirits.

Where in all the above is there any indication that the Elect One, the Son of Man, etc., will be an actual man (much less a crucified one)? I suppose anything's possible, but it just seems strange to me that Jews would apply stuff like this to an actual human being, whatever he was, in the first place, crucifixion or no crucifixion (and obviously Jesus did not do any of the things mentioned below while on Earth). On the other hand, I can see Jewish mystics, Hellenized and otherwise, reading the Similitudes along with books like Isaiah and Psalms, with passages about suffering and vindication ("they pierced my hands and feet" "for my garments they cast lots" and so on) and some of them concluding that this part of the mystery, this was how God turned the tables on the evil angels, as in Colossians 2:15: "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." Obviously nothing like this happened when an earthly man was supposedly crucified, but it makes sense if for the writer of this passage, the thing had already happened "up there": Christ in disguise had been crucified by the fallen angels, then reappeared to them in glory and triumph.

There is plenty of source material from first centuries B.C.E. and C.E. to construct all sorts of Christian-type faiths with no need to have an actual crucified man at the root of it. While this does not by itself "prove" there was no historical Jesus, it is one piece of the puzzle.

Here's part of Doherty/Carrier's response to Bernard Muller:

Descending Gods

(Muller) Nowhere in this section (pages 103-105) Doherty proves a mythical theme existed during Paul's times about "descending gods". Actually, even if Earl claims "the concept of the "descending redeemer" seems to have been a persuasive idea during the era", he has to admit next "the evidence for the pre-Christian period is patchy and much debated." And Doherty does not provide any example!

(Doherty) As a matter of fact, I did. On page 137, I mention the heavenly savior figure (referred to, by the way, as a "Man") known as the Illuminator, in the Apocalypse of Adam. In the passage 76-83, he performs "signs and wonders" for the benefit of the spirit powers and is given a gnostic myth involving birth from a virgin ("born of woman," one might say) while angelic powers warred around them, and dragons, birds, caves and mountains all put in an appearance in a clearly supernatural context. Similarly, the "Man" of the Apocryphon of John (20,1-8) is fashioned in heaven into a luminous "body" and is cast into matter, but even there, his activities are in a supernatural venue at the hands of the archons, and he seems to undergo death. This material is densely obscure, and certainly alien to the modern mind, but the motifs are there and have much in common with those of the epistles (which are in their own way saturated with alien obscurity, as any theologian has to admit). Some commentators on Gnosticism have concluded that this material is pre-Christian; most of them allow that it is at least independent of Christianity.

(Muller) Certainly, there were many stories about the Greek gods descending/ascending, in different human forms, but it is from the top of high places, like mount Olympus, to the earth below.Earl appears to agree: "To undergo such things ["pain, blood, death"], the god had to come down to humanity's territory." However later, he theorizes this "humanity's territory" was thought to include the air between earth and moon. Really! Were human beings living there? Which ones settled in the air?
And do we have any example of an ancient god descending to the air only (not all the way down to earth or the underworld!), and experiencing pain, blood & death? As it is usually the case, Doherty does not provide the primary evidence to support his claim. Personally I know of none. Who does?
And on the theme of "descending/ascending god", if Jesus was earthly and also later believed to be a pre-existent and then resurrected heavenly Deity, of course we would have, as an implied consequence, descent and ascent!

(Doherty) Carrier has already addressed Muller's incredulity that the realm of human territory ("flesh") could encompass the lowest spirit level, the air below the moon. And Muller himself will go on to discuss the Ascension of Isaiah in great detail, so he does know of an apparent example of an ancient god descending and experiencing pain, blood and death in a location not on earth. He also ignores my quotes from Julian about Attis descending only to the boundary between spirit and matter. Moreover, as Carrier goes on to say:

I agree Doherty needs to document his background better. But here Doherty is still correct and Muller is quite wrong. First of all, hardly anyone thought the gods literally lived on Olympus. Anyone familiar with the literature of the period will know that the gods were almost universally conceived as living in heaven or Hades and sometimes ascending/descending from there. Plutarch's account of Osiris is a clear case, and directly links to Plato's discussion of divine intermediaries in the Symposium. But there are many other texts that establish the same point. All bona fide scholars of ancient religion agree. There is no doubt that Jews and Pagans both had a place for a middle kind of deity who mediated between the celestial region and the terrestrial, between god and men. And many descend and reascend, not to Olympus, but, literally, to Heaven.

Besides Osiris, who does exactly that, Romulus is another unmistakable example—and one whose pageant of incarnation and ascension was publicly celebrated in Rome in the 1st centuries BC and AD, without any doubt (we have it from Livy, Ovid, Plutarch, etc.). He is a heavenly being who descends, incarnates on earth, establishes an empire, is killed by a conspiracy of leaders, resurrects, and ascends back to heaven. However, unlike Plutarch's "true" Osiris, this is a literal historical event and takes place on earth (as far as the sources say at any rate). Even so, I seriously doubt there really was a historical Romulus. And the true "Osiris" incarnates and dies in the aer, not on earth, so he cuts a perfect parallel for Doherty's thesis.

GakuseiDon

Ignatius seems to have written letters to many churches. Unless those churches thought "There goes that mad Ignatius, talking about a historical Christ again!" it seems that Jesus' historicity was well established early, if Doherty is right about Ignatius writing in 107 (and also that they are not forgeries). This is from his letter to the Romans:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...s-roberts.html

"I write to all the Churches... I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you. They were apostles of Jesus Christ... My spirit salutes you, and the love of the Churches that have received me in the name of Jesus Christ, and not as a mere passer-by. For even those Churches which were not near to me in the way, I mean according to the flesh, have gone before me, city by city, [to meet me.]

Ignatius is writing to a church that arguably was familiar with Paul himself. The Papias passages (again, assuming they are not forgery) suggests a line from a historical Jesus to his time.

Seriously: perhaps you need to read something other than Doherty's articles. At some stage, you are going to have to actually investigate his claims, rather than just rely on the contents of his articles.

Let's start with the claim you made in this post: "This hardly means that ALL Christians at this time regarded Mark as a literal, historical account, or were even aware of Mark. That view still seems limited and embryonic at this stage. Near-universal acceptance of Jesus' historicity doesn't seem to occur until late in the 2nd century."

IYO, which churches were MJers at the start of the Second Century, at the time that Ignatius was writing (according to Doherty)?

GakuseiDon

Ben is correct. I am after evidence of pagan thought along the lines that Doherty is proposing. I think that if we can show that there isn't any, then Doherty's appeals to pagan ideas can be dismissed.

Here is the link. Can you show me where this figure descends from heaven to perform these actions in a non-earthly world?
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/adam.html

Again, here is the link:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

Information on it is available from Kirby's website:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...yphonjohn.html

I'm a bit wary of tying late Second Century gnosticism into how Paul thought, but I'd be interested in investigating this further if you think it helps support a belief in a saviour god descending into the world of matter without touching the earth. My main focus though is on the pagan side of the equation.

Carrier misunderstood Muller there. Carrier thought that Muller was questioning the two-tier universe concept, when in fact Muller was questioning Doherty's "two-tier beneath the firmament" concept. Carrier actually agrees with Muller, according to statements later reproduced by Ted Hoffman.

Actually, Muller doesn't ignore them. Here is his review of Doherty:
http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/djp1.html

Muller refers to Doherty's comments on Attis AFAICS.

Can you tell me how this is relevant? The question is a descending being who doesn't come to earth. How does referring to one that does come to earth help? Carrier makes some suprising blunders in his review, which makes me wonder how much of Doherty's concept he understood.

In fact, Carrier is wrong, and demonstrably wrong. Osiris does NOT die in the aer. Plutarch represents Osiris dying on earth, or represents Osiris as an allegory and so doesn't die at all. There is no death in the "aer". We can go through this together if you are interested. I started a thread here a while ago:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=175903

Ben C Smith

Thank you for the link. Here is a link of my own: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=172403.

Where in all the above is there any indication that the elect one, the son of man, descended into a material world that was not the earth to be killed? That was what I was asking for, if you recall. Why are the goalposts shifting?

Ben.

S.C.Carlson

Nope. Ancient documents are still hearsay, but admissible evidence under a specific exception.

Stephen