Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-16-2009, 12:34 PM

But does fasting produce the particular hallucination of bright light, or luminous figures? (I don't know - Matossian says that it does not.)

Newfie · 10-16-2009, 12:56 PM

I wonder how many people are out there who haven't entertained the possibility that the burning bush in Exodus was there for more than just show.

The populations of that time may also have been more susceptible to the influences of these drugs. There was a study of the Inuit concerning the effects of alcohol. Apparently, the Inuit got drunk and dependant more quickly than people of European decent, possibly due to our longer history of our ancestors getting sloshed and building up a tolerance.

I've heard from Christians themselves, the ones who are into temperance, question just how alcoholic the wine Jesus would have drank. Most would like to believe that the stuff was hardly, or not alcoholic at all. Mere grape juice. Would the alcoholic content of the wine have killed any biological intoxicants, or could the ferment actually cause this mold to grow?

I caught a piece on CNN yesterday (between balloon boy stories) about near death experiences. Their medical correspondent did a good job of illustrating the natural explanations for what people experience. Probably lots of supernatural stuff has a similar cause. Back home people use to experience something called the "Old Hag" and many outsiders scoffed. Turns out that it was sleep paralysis.

Solo · 10-16-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

I think in fact that it can. It is a similar phenomenon to "near death" experiences, where folks think they see bright lights and hear voices and see long-dead relatives. It is caused by the lack of oxygen to the brain compounded by physical strain of a sick body. You could check into Gershom Scholem's book on Jewish Mysticism and also on Merkabah Mysticism specifically.

According to Scholem, who summarizes the process of ascent:

This mystical ascent is always preceded by ascetic practices whose duration in some cases is twelve days, in others forty. ... [quoting Hai ben Sherira, ca 1000 CE:] "he must fast a number of days and lay his head between his knees and whisper many hymns and songs whose texts are known from tradition. Then he perceives the interior of the chambers, as if he saw the seven palaces with his own eyes, and it is as though he entered one palace after the other and saw what was there."

The typical bodily posture of these ascetics ... [,] to judge from certain ethnological parallels, is favorable to the induction of pre-hypnotic autosuggestion. ... Sunk in his ecstatic trance, the mystic ... experiences frustration [at the increasing difficulty of producing the magical formulae and seals that the angels/archons will accept to let him pass] which he tries to overcome by using longer and more complicated magical formulae ... to pass the closed entrance gates which block his progress. As his physical energy wanes the magical strain grows and the conjuring gesture becomes progressively more strained, until in the end whole pages [of the notes kept by the adept's disciples as he narrates his activities] are filled with an apparently meaningless recital of magical key-words with which he tries to unlock the closed door.

It is this [psychological strain caused by the progressive lack of physical energy and increased frustration] which explains the abundance of magical elements ... [s]uch as voces mysticae ["mystical voices"] ... Angels and archons [which] storm against the traveller "in order to drive him out"; a fire which proceeds from his own body threatens to devour him. [The Munich manuscript of the Heckaloth texts says:] "[I]f one was unworthy of to see the king in his beauty, the angels at the gates disturbed his senses and confused him. And when ... he entered, ... instantly they pressed him and threw him into a fiery lava stream. And at the gate of the sixth palace it seemed as though hundreds of thousands and millions of waves of water stormed against him, and yet there was not a drop of water, only the ethereal glitter of the marble plates with which the palace was tessellated ... [a]nd he does not go until they strike his head with iron bars and wound him." [Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism (or via: amazon.co.uk), pp 49-54]

This sounds like hallucinations with themes of raging fire (often consuming him completely, until he felt as though he was hanging in space without limbs) and intense visual misinterpretations (e.g., the glitter of polished floor tiles mistaken for the glitter of disturbed waters) to me! These descriptions are from merkabah/heckaloth texts composed in Babylon, Spain and Asia between 600 and 1200 CE! All this done with nothing more than controlled breathing and fasting and autosuggestion. The preparatory phase which includes fasting makes accidental ingestion of moldy grain highly unlikely as the common trigger for these visions.

Jewish mystics of this type (not necessarily exactly like the later merkabah mystics) are believed to have been active even as early as the 1-2 century BCE on the basis of similar imagery found in Jewish pseudepigrapha such as 4th Ezra and 1 Enoch. This is on a par with any Dungeons & Dragons style board or electronic fantasy game we have today, and they only require an active imagination!

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It isn' just visions that Matossian describes, but specifically visions of light, or of people clothed in light, such as the Ascension and other appearances. Controlling your breathing will not produce that sort of mass hallucination.

The 2nd century BCE is within her time frame for moist moldy conditions in the Mediterranean.

The light phenomena are well known and associate with the disturbances of the optic nerve known as "photism". As the sensation of light is regularly reported due all sorts of conditions of neuropathologies and/or abnormal stress (e.g. during heart attacks, panic attacks, strokes, as part of epileptic or paraleptic auras, etc.). I am constantly amazed why people would speculate wildly about matters that have natural, physical explanations.

The "substance abuse" theory of the origin of the visions of the Lord, is highly implausible. One of the reasons is that the NT texts themselves mightily hint the visions were sponsored by spontaneously altered consciousness. The miraculous turning of water to wine in John 2 and the descent of the Spirit during the Pentecost in Acts 2, provide the best allegorical argument that the intoxication by the Spirit involved no mind altering substance.

Jiri

Toto · 10-16-2009, 02:38 PM

You googlebooks.ca link is to Soldier of the Church - The Life of Ignatius Loyola (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Ludwig Marcuse

Quote:

When he closed his eyes, Inigo, like everybody else, saw circles, sphere, radiations, flashing white spots. Modern science gives these everyday phenomena the name photism. Inigo lived in a world to which the optic nerve was more occult that Satan and the Virgin Mary. Mechanical irritations of a muscle received lofty nams because nature had supernatural meaning. He still ate no meat. One morning on waking he saw a prime roast as plainly as if with his physical eyes. Imagination has thus mocked thousands tryng to violate desire. The miracle on this occasion was the famished pilgrim's interpretation of the appparition: "God wants me to eat meat." ...

Very interesting. I had a similar experience when I was practicing yoga and trying to be a vegetarian, but my interpretation was that evolution had designed me to eat meat.

Elijah · 10-16-2009, 02:48 PM

There is also sleep deprivation as a possible source of hallucinations, that may go with the "stay awake" deal that Jesus was talking. Along with the already mentioned regulating your breathing thru reciting prayer and also fasting.

I saw this recentlyin Julian the Apostate's Against the Galileans . Don't know if this is something they really practiced or just a rationalization.

"They lodge among tombs and in caves for the sake of dream visions." You observe, then, how ancient among the Jews was this work of witchcraft, namely, sleeping among tombs for the sake of dream visions. And indeed it is likely that your apostles, after their teacher's death, practiced this and handed it down to you from the beginning,

youngalexander · 10-16-2009, 07:15 PM

"The mushroom has always been a thing of mystery."

John M. Allegro:constern01:

arnoldo · 10-17-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

. .

The "substance abuse" theory of the origin of the visions of the Lord, is highly implausible. One of the reasons is that the NT texts themselves mightily hint the visions were sponsored by spontaneously altered consciousness. The miraculous turning of water to wine in John 2 and the descent of the Spirit during the Pentecost in Acts 2, provide the best allegorical argument that the intoxication by the Spirit involved no mind altering substance.

Jiri

IIRC, in Acts a group of individuals are accused of being intoxicated by some kind of substance so these claims are nothing new. In other parts of the NT it warns against sorceries which is translated from the greek "pharmakeia".

arnoldo · 10-17-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

.......This thesis explains some puzzles in early Christianity. It appears that the source of Paul's gospel and the early gospels was revelation from the Holy Spirit or Jesus, or channeled entities. But by the fourth century, this all disappears. It might have been that the prophets and visionaries were too unstable for that institutional phase of the church, but it just might have been that the drugs ran out.

But, it must first be known when Paul wrote. He may have written when the drugs had already ran out.

Didn't Paul also have visions? Obviously, the drugs were still around when Paul wrote. :constern02:

Clivedurdle · 10-17-2009, 01:34 PM

When I was 13 I converted to xianity - was born again. My mum was in hospital for a thyroid operation, my parent's marriage was rocky - possible divorce in 1966 in UK.

We had strange xian babysitters who sent me to bed at 8:00pm instead of allowing me to stay up and watch the Man from Uncle. I can't remember, but me, a quiet grammar school swot, probably had a row, I remember crying and praying myself and then seeing a white ghostly figure in my room and then accepting Jesus.

I would say I learned this trick described above of the Jewish mystics, but with a lot less oomph.

A few years later I was "baptised in the Holy spirit" and can still speak in tongues.

I would argue different people have different abilities to meet the gods, and stress, religious rituals, drugs are all ways to the gods, which is probably related to getting direct access to the right brain.

Strange week this, In Science we are discussing that the universe is in fact eternal, in evolution, we probably have a complete theory of abiogenesis, and here we have neurological, medicinal discussions of religious visions.

What are we going to do with all these redundant religious buildings?

DCHindley · 10-18-2009, 08:55 AM

Ahh, a fellow "tongues speaker"! I went through the "born again" thing at age 15. No ghostly figures though. Got the holy spirit a year or so later. I did not consider myself a Pentecostal, but rather a "charismatic". Like you, I can still do it today.

Of course, there is the scientific explanation - that the white ghostly figure you saw was really the ghost of Mary Worth, but not knowing that, your mind rationalized it into a vision of an angel or Jesus. Amen!

Good ol' Napoleon Solo and Illya Kuryakin, and of course Mr Waverly and that nifty secret complex underneath the tailor shop. I'm sure you also got into Emma Peel, Major John Steed and "Mother" of The Avengers, and maybe even Emma's replacement, Tara King. Emma's advice to Tara: "Ahem. He [Steed] likes his tea stirred anti-clockwise" [miming a stirring motion with her finger]."

That is good advice for all. You don't suppose she was really indicating how Steed liked his mushroom tea ... Jamaica style?

DCH (post not meant to mean much of anything really ...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

When I was 13 I converted to xianity - was born again. My mum was in hospital for a thyroid operation, my parent's marriage was rocky - possible divorce in 1966 in UK.

We had strange xian babysitters who sent me to bed at 8:00pm instead of allowing me to stay up and watch the Man from Uncle. I can't remember, but me, a quiet grammar school swot, probably had a row, I remember crying and praying myself and then seeing a white ghostly figure in my room and then accepting Jesus.

I would say I learned this trick described above of the Jewish mystics, but with a lot less oomph.

A few years later I was "baptised in the Holy spirit" and can still speak in tongues.

I would argue different people have different abilities to meet the gods, and stress, religious rituals, drugs are all ways to the gods, which is probably related to getting direct access to the right brain.

Strange week this, In Science we are discussing that the universe is in fact eternal, in evolution, we probably have a complete theory of abiogenesis, and here we have neurological, medicinal discussions of religious visions.

What are we going to do with all these redundant religious buildings?

10-16-2009, 02:48 PM	#15
Elijah Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MidWest Posts: 1,894	There is also sleep deprivation as a possible source of hallucinations, that may go with the "stay awake" deal that Jesus was talking. Along with the already mentioned regulating your breathing thru reciting prayer and also fasting. I saw this recentlyin Julian the Apostate's Against the Galileans . Don't know if this is something they really practiced or just a rationalization. "They lodge among tombs and in caves for the sake of dream visions." You observe, then, how ancient among the Jews was this work of witchcraft, namely, sleeping among tombs for the sake of dream visions. And indeed it is likely that your apostles, after their teacher's death, practiced this and handed it down to you from the beginning,

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10-16-2009, 12:34 PM	#11
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	But does fasting produce the particular hallucination of bright light, or luminous figures? (I don't know - Matossian says that it does not.)

10-16-2009, 12:56 PM	#12
Newfie Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,457	I wonder how many people are out there who haven't entertained the possibility that the burning bush in Exodus was there for more than just show. The populations of that time may also have been more susceptible to the influences of these drugs. There was a study of the Inuit concerning the effects of alcohol. Apparently, the Inuit got drunk and dependant more quickly than people of European decent, possibly due to our longer history of our ancestors getting sloshed and building up a tolerance. I've heard from Christians themselves, the ones who are into temperance, question just how alcoholic the wine Jesus would have drank. Most would like to believe that the stuff was hardly, or not alcoholic at all. Mere grape juice. Would the alcoholic content of the wine have killed any biological intoxicants, or could the ferment actually cause this mold to grow? I caught a piece on CNN yesterday (between balloon boy stories) about near death experiences. Their medical correspondent did a good job of illustrating the natural explanations for what people experience. Probably lots of supernatural stuff has a similar cause. Back home people use to experience something called the "Old Hag" and many outsiders scoffed. Turns out that it was sleep paralysis.

10-16-2009, 07:15 PM	#16
youngalexander Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mornington Peninsula Posts: 1,306	"The mushroom has always been a thing of mystery." John M. Allegro:constern01:

10-17-2009, 01:34 PM	#19
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	When I was 13 I converted to xianity - was born again. My mum was in hospital for a thyroid operation, my parent's marriage was rocky - possible divorce in 1966 in UK. We had strange xian babysitters who sent me to bed at 8:00pm instead of allowing me to stay up and watch the Man from Uncle. I can't remember, but me, a quiet grammar school swot, probably had a row, I remember crying and praying myself and then seeing a white ghostly figure in my room and then accepting Jesus. I would say I learned this trick described above of the Jewish mystics, but with a lot less oomph. A few years later I was "baptised in the Holy spirit" and can still speak in tongues. I would argue different people have different abilities to meet the gods, and stress, religious rituals, drugs are all ways to the gods, which is probably related to getting direct access to the right brain. Strange week this, In Science we are discussing that the universe is in fact eternal, in evolution, we probably have a complete theory of abiogenesis, and here we have neurological, medicinal discussions of religious visions. What are we going to do with all these redundant religious buildings?

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