Ted Hoffman

Peter Kirby,
I will give it a shot. The answer can be two-pronged:

1. Josephus mentioned a number of Jews who engaged in messianic or eschatological activities and a number of them had the name Jesus: Jesus of Nazareth is not one of them (one of the messiah's).

2. Josephus mentions crucifixions that involve many Jews at a time and few Jews. The Gospels indicate to us that Jesus' crucifixion involved less than five people. Jesus crucifixion is not included among the crucifixions Josephus knows of.
My other point:

3. It is inconceivable that a messiah that made a triumphal entry into Jerusalem and disrupted peaceful and profitable public gatherings in the temple, as the gospels claim Jesus did, failed to get Josephus' attention.

A messiah that was followed by crowds in galilee for his miracle making and who displayed his miraculous feats in public like feeding thousands, making 2000 pigs drown, and changing water into wine at the wedding was definitely a phenomena that would not have failed to draw criticisms of false miracles from skeptics and his reputation would not have failed to reach Josephus' ears.

And why Josephus never heard of this man, who roamed the cities with a gang of twelve uneducated men and flouted Jewish culture, needs a cogent explanation. The only other explanation is obvious.

Jesus ben Ananias, for example, was said to have been “whipped till his bones were laid bare� (Josephus' War 6.5.3).

Messiahs Appearing in Records

Messiahs Robert Price, Deconstructing Jesus, page 246, 2000

Jesus ben-Ananias
Simon bar-Giora
Carabbas
Theudas the Galilean
Judas the Galilean
Jesus ban-Sapphia
the Egyptian
Jesus bar-Abbas
Elymas bar-Jesus
Jesus Justus
the martyred Samaritan Messiah
Simon bar-Kokhba

Theudas the Galilean
"However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what befell the Jews in the time of Cuspius Fadus's government." Antiquities of the Jews 20.5.1

Judas the Galilean Antiquities of the Jews 18.1.6 had followers who revolted against the romans.

The Egyptian Antiquities of the Jews 20.8.6 "said he was a prophet, and advised the multitude of the common people to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of five furlongs. He said further, that he would show them from hence how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down; and he promised them that he would procure them an entrance into the city through those walls, when they were fallen down. Now when Felix was informed of these things, he ordered his soldiers to take their weapons, and came against them with a great number of horsemen and footmen from Jerusalem, and attacked the Egyptian and the people that were with him. He also slew four hundred of them, and took two hundred alive. But the Egyptian himself escaped out of the fight, but did not appear any more"


Antiochus IV Epiphanes crucified those Jews who would not accept hellenization Antiquities of the Jews 12.5.4:
"But the best men, and those of the noblest souls, did not regard him, but did pay a greater respect to the customs of their country than concern as to the punishment which he threatened to the disobedient; on which account they every day underwent great miseries and bitter torments; for they were whipped with rods, and their bodies were torn to pieces, and were crucified, while they were still alive, and breathed. They also strangled those women and their sons whom they had circumcised, as the king had appointed, hanging their sons about their necks as they were upon the crosses. And if there were any sacred book of the law found, it was destroyed, and those with whom they were found miserably perished also. "

Wars of the Jews 5:11.1 "they were forced to defend themselves for fear of being punished; as after they had fought, they thought it too late to make any supplications for mercy; so they were first whipped, and then tormented with all sorts of tortures, before they died, and were then crucified before the wall of the city. This miserable procedure made Titus greatly to pity them, while they caught every day five hundred Jews; nay, some days they caught more: yet it did not appear to be safe for him to let those that were taken by force go their way, and to set a guard over so many he saw would be to make such as great deal them useless to him. The main reason why he did not forbid that cruelty was this, that he hoped the Jews might perhaps yield at that sight, out of fear lest they might themselves afterwards be liable to the same cruel treatment. So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies."

In Life 76 Josephus records that three friends of his were being crucified in Thecoa by the Romans who were saved when Josephus asked Titus to intervene. One survived

Intelligitimate

Great! Perhaps you'd also like to treat it in a reasonably serious manner. Chris Price is coming from a more conservative view, I'd love to read a 'liberal' critique (since you seem to identify with liberal theologians).

An emotional reaction to it doesn't do anyone any good. And I'm sure that your audience here, even Ted Hoffman, will greatly appreciate it if you keep it serious. (By serious, I mean you give references for your claims, you quote Doherty, you try to reasonably engage his ideas, etc).

If you do that, I can't wait to read it!

Peter Kirby

I wanted to know what Jack the Bodiless meant. (Some people--not necessarily Jack, but people I've known in person and on the 'net--think that we have actual records of the proceedings of various trials and such from that era, like the reports that a prefect would send to Rome periodically, when we actually have scant references [relative to the number of trials that must have actually occured] from preserved classics, and also some Egyptian papyri that don't yield much [or anything] on the subject. And we've found one identifiably crucified skeleton.)

Okay, so you believe or know that Josephus didn't mention Jesus. If that were true, it would be evidence against the existence of Jesus, as I've said before.

best,
Peter Kirby

Intelligitimate

I do believe I remember an account of a forgery that resembles that. I believe I read about it in R.T. France's The Evidence for Jesus. I'm not sure if I read it in that book or somewhere else.

Do you know what I'm talking about, Peter?

Intelligitimate

I think it's Acts of Pilate.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/actspilate.html

Peter Kirby

A far more interesting forgery would feature trials and crucifixions of other people.

Justin and Tertullian claim that a report from Pilate to Tiberius can be found in the archives, but they can't be bothered to quote from it. The extant Acts of Pilate are believed to be fourth century.

best,
Peter Kirby

Rick Sumner

I'm hard-pressed to believe that Justin and Tertullian aren't making it up as they go. Given the absence of any indication that reports on executions were anything approaching standard, it seems quite the stretch to presume that Pilate would have done anything of the sort.

Even if they aren't making it up, it seems reasonable to conclude that what Justin and Tertullian were looking at was simply another forgery, just an earlier one than survives to us.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Peter Kirby

I don't believe that Justin or Tertullian had something in hand (I thought I subtly implied this...), and if they did it was a forgery.

The question of what kind of stuff was sent by prefects or procurators to Rome could be an interesting one to look into. My unverified recollection is that the execution of a Roman citizen was supposed to be reported. Yet I haven't crossed many who claim Jesus to have been a citizen.

best,
Peter Kirby

Rick Sumner

You did. I should have been clearer that my post was in agreement, rather than adversarial.

I haven't crossed any. How would such an argument run?

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Peter Kirby

I don't know, maybe his real name was Biggus Dikkus?

best,
Peter Kirby

ps- would be nice to have some knowledge on what was customarily sent from provincial officials to Rome.