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01-30-2006, 10:36 AM | #11 |
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There was the bishop that rounded up all the copies of the Didascalia from his churches and replaced them with the canonical gosples around 500 AD. The Didascalia had been used in many Syrian churches from about 200 AD till then. I don't have the references in front of me but I'll try to post them later.
On Athanasius's violence against his enemies, When Jesus Became God cites a letter that has been found from one priest to another that complains of Athanasius's oppression of his opponents. |
01-30-2006, 10:39 AM | #12 | ||
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All the best, Roger Pearse |
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01-30-2006, 11:03 AM | #13 | |||
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Did the early church really destroy documents?
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As Elaine Pagels has said, "The victors rewrote history, 'their way.'" The New Testament canon was merely the result of the victors, in other words, "orthodox" Christians, voting on writings that they found to be appealing. Roger, please tell us by what means the writings that were included in the canon were chosen. Quote:
Regardless of any apologetic issue, including the Resurrection, the ultimate issue is the nature of God. What evidence do you have that God is not an evil God who is masquerading as a good God and is planning to send everyone to hell? In addition, what evidence do you have that the risen Jesus was not an alien imposter? Your scholarship is impressive, but no amount of scholarship can reliably determine what the nature of God really is. All of your years of research are useless even if the Resurrection occurred. |
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01-30-2006, 01:09 PM | #14 | |
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It could all be coincidence. Maybe Athanasius :angel: was only making a meek suggestion, the Nag Hammadi texts weren't hidden, just put in the 4th century equivalent of a "store and lock" and these manuscripts disappeared from the face of the earth because nobody remebered to copy them. All benign. Either that or the orthodox burned :devil2: them. Jake Jones IV |
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01-30-2006, 02:24 PM | #15 | |||
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There is a discussion of Athanasius' behaviour in the light of this and other evidence, in Hanson's The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God Andrew Criddle |
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01-30-2006, 05:19 PM | #16 | ||
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01-31-2006, 06:05 AM | #17 | |
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99% of Ancient Literature Perished at Hands of Christians
To my mind there is no doubt that the 99% of Ancient literature that perished before the end of antiquity was the result of deliberate policies of the Christian Emperors and the Roman Church in the Fourth Century.
There was an extensive system of libraries both public and private that preserved perhaps a hundred thousand books into the Fourth century, when Christians gained power, I believe there was a deliberate and systematic attempt to destroy this literature, led by and carried out by Christians. To get an idea of the number of books available in the Third Century, before Christians took power, we need only look at the work of Diogenes Laertius. In his single first book on the Philosopher Thales, he quotes the following authors and works, whom he had access to: 1)Demetrius Phalereus, "Catalogue of the Archons," 2)Hieronymus, of Rhodes, "Miscellaneous Memoranda," 3)Callimachus "Iambic," 4)Eleusis "History of Achilles," 5)Alexander the Myndian "Traditions," 6) Eudoxus of Cnidos 7) Euanthes of Miletus, 8) Daimachus the Platonic philosopher, 9)Clearchus, 10) Andron "The Tripod," 11)Phanodicus, 12) Lobon, of Argos, 13) Apollodorus, "Chronicles," 14) Demetrius of Magnesia, "Treatise on People and Things of the Same Name," 15) Duris, "On Painting," 16) Dionysius, 17)"Criticisms," 18) Antisthenes, "Successions," 19) Damon the Cyrenaean, 20) Archetimus, the Syracusian, 21) Ephorus, 22) Leander, 23) Dicaearchus, 24)Hermippus, "Treatise on the Wise Men," 25)Hippobotus in his Description of the Philosophers Again these are just the works mentioning the philosopher Thales that Diogenes Laertes has access to in the Third century. We may assume that these works and authors were recognized as having value into the Fourth century. The Roman emperors and the Roman peoples before Constantine had the greatest reason to preserve all these works and there is nothing to suggest that they deliberately destroyed a single one of them. Cities and Families were extremely proud of their libraries and naturally sort to preserve them. It was only the Christians who saw the works of the ancient world as virtually valueless, except for a few text that might support a few of their theological propositions. It was only these that they deemed worthy of preservation. One Thousand Years of poetry, plays, histories, memoirs, and works on art, religion and science were systematically destroyed at the hands of the Christians when they obtained power over the Roman Empire. While one may argue that Christians were under no obligation to preserve or copy works that did not promote their world viewpoint, I prefer to think as human beings, they were under an obligation to their fellow human beings to share this wealth and legacy with future generations. It is a mark of their extreme selfishness, inhumanity, and self-absorption that they did not. Warmly, PhilosopherJay Quote:
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01-31-2006, 08:07 AM | #18 |
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I think you'll find that Diogenes only had a list of titles. He never actually saw any of the works you refer to and his information on Thales comes from secondary sources.
Needless to say, Roger is right and Christians never had a policy to destroy pagan science and literature. The standard work on the subject Reynold's Scribes and Scholars. Read it before making any more pronouncements on the subject. Best wishes Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason |
02-01-2006, 09:37 AM | #19 | |
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Hi Bede,
I did not include on my list the books that Diogenes does not cite but only names. I think if you read him you'll find that that his knowledge of his sources indicates that he is reading them directly. For example: Hieronymus, of Rhodes, also tells us, in the second book of his Miscellaneous Memoranda, that when he was desirous to show that it was easy to get rich, he, foreseeing that there would be a great crop of olives, took some large plantations of olive trees, and so made a great deal of money. As you can see, Diogenes is directly quoting from and weighting the opinions of the texts that he is citing, so there can be no question that he is just reading a list of names of titles of books. The Loeb Classical Library edition states: This rich compendium on the lives and doctrines of philosophers ranges over three centuries, from Thales to Epicurus (to whom the whole tenth book is devoted); 45 important figures are portrayed. Diogenes Laertius carefully compiled his information from hundreds of sources and enriches his accounts with numerous quotations. In the villa of the papyri at Herculaneum some 2000 scolls were found. Since this was an ordinary small town of only 5000 people, we may suspect that in larger, more urban areas, libraries of perhaps 10,000 scrolls would be common. Again, we are talking about a very small town in the year 80. By the year 250 (approximately when Diogenes wrote), the size of private libraries would probably have increased substantially. I find no reason to doubt that Diogenes owned and read the several hundred sources that he quotes in his texts. While I have heard of the allegations that he used compilations, I have not encountered the reasons for such a belief. As far as the general question of whether Christians had a policy of destroying scientific and literary works, it has been quite some time, 20 years or more since I investigated the proposition and came to the conclusion that they had. I will reinvestigate the question starting from your website and the source book you suggested and get back to you on it. Warmly, Jay Raskin Quote:
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02-01-2006, 11:47 AM | #20 | |
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Did the early church really destroy documents?
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Elaine Pagels: For nearly 2,000 years, Christian tradition has preserved and revered orthodox writings that denounce the Gnostics, while suppressing and virtually destroying the Gnostic writings themselves. Now, for the first time, certain texts discovered at Nag Hammadi reveal the other side of the coin: how Gnostics denounced the orthodox. The 'Second Treatise of the Great Seth' polemicizes against orthodox Christianity, contrasting it with the 'true church' of the Gnostics. Speaking for those he calls the sons of light, the author says: '...we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant (pagans), but also by those think they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals.'" Larry Taylor: How does this apply to the story of Jesus? Simply that all of the early critics are dead. Skeptical opinions were banned. Christian opinions, other than those of the establishment, were banned. Books were destroyed, and later, heretics were burned. Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2002: By the 3rd century Gnosticism began to succumb to orthodox Christian opposition and persecution. Partly in reaction to the Gnostic heresy, the church strengthened its organization by centralizing authority in the office of bishop, which made its effort to suppress the poorly organized Gnostics more effective. In his book titled ‘The Religious Quests of the Graeco-Roman World,’ Christian author S. Angus, Ph.D., D.Lit., D.D., says the following: “No one could have dreamed that the Christians, who had themselves suffered so much from persecution and protested so vehemently against the injustice and futility of persecution, would so quickly have turned persecutors and surpassed their Pagan predecessors in fanatical savagery and efficiency, utterly oblivious of the Beatitude of the Divine Master (Matt. V. 10, 44, 45). It became ominous for subsequent history that the first General Council of the Church was signalized by bitter excommunications and banishments. Christians, having acquired the art of disposing of hostile criticism by searching out and burning the objectionable books of their Pagan adversaries, learned to apply the same method to the works of such groups of Christians as were not in power or in favour for the time; when this method proved unsatisfactory, they found it expedient to burn their bodies. The chained skeleton found in the Mithraic chapel at Sarrebourg testified to the drastic means employed by Christians in making the truth conquer otherwise than by the methods and exemplified by the Founder. The stripping and torture to death with oyster-shells in a Christian church and the subsequent mangling of limb from limb of Hypatia, the noblest representative of Neo-Platonism of her day, by the violent Nitrian monks and servitors of a Christian bishop, and probably with his connivance, were symptomatic and prophetic of the intolerance and fanaticism which Christianity was to direct throughout the centuries upon its disobedient members and troublesome minorities until the day – yet to dawn – when a purer, more convincing because more spiritual, Christianity gains ‘the consent of happier generation, the applause of less superstitious ages.’� It is reasonable to assume that early Christians destroyed competing documents. Are you aware of ANY competing documents that Christians preserved? It is a fact that the largest colonial empire under a single religion by far was conquered by Christian nations by means of persecution, murder, and theft of property. It is also a fact for about 90% of the time since Christianity was founded, the majority of Christians endoresed slavery and the subjugation of women. |
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