FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-30-2006, 10:36 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 701
Default

There was the bishop that rounded up all the copies of the Didascalia from his churches and replaced them with the canonical gosples around 500 AD. The Didascalia had been used in many Syrian churches from about 200 AD till then. I don't have the references in front of me but I'll try to post them later.

On Athanasius's violence against his enemies, When Jesus Became God cites a letter that has been found from one priest to another that complains of Athanasius's oppression of his opponents.
robto is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 10:39 AM   #12
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robto
There was the bishop that rounded up all the copies of the Didascalia from his churches and replaced them with the canonical gosples around 500 AD. The Didascalia had been used in many Syrian churches from about 200 AD till then. I don't have the references in front of me but I'll try to post them later.
You mean the Diatessaron, I think; this is Theodoret of Cyrrhus in the 5th century. But again I don't see how it can reasonably be argued that he had no right to do this.

Quote:
On Athanasius's violence against his enemies, When Jesus Became God cites a letter that has been found from one priest to another that complains of Athanasius's oppression of his opponents.
Which letter?

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Roger Pearse is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 11:03 AM   #13
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,796
Default Did the early church really destroy documents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat59
Elaine Pagels in the Gnostic Gospels (p130) refers to Athansasius, Archbishop of Alexandria, as sending out an order to purge all "apocryphal books" with "heretical " tendencies in 367. This Wiki arcticle also refers to him as being willing to back up his theological views with the use of force. I am unable to find the document she refers to quoted or referenced directly in her book, however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerPearse
Isn't that infuriating?!? Why do people make such statements in print, if they won't reference them? If you come up with anything, do let me know.
Roger, you should certainly be able to contact Elaine Pagels yourself. If you have troube doing that, I can send her any questions that you have through Dr. Robert Price, who I correspond with frequently, and who personally knows Pagels.

As Elaine Pagels has said, "The victors rewrote history, 'their way.'" The New Testament canon was merely the result of the victors, in other words, "orthodox" Christians, voting on writings that they found to be appealing. Roger, please tell us by what means the writings that were included in the canon were chosen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerPearse
It would be most interesting to see on what, if anything, the statement is based. I am guessing that possibly the Archbishop merely told his clergy, perhaps in a Paschal letter (these exist for Athanasius) to remove apocrypha and heretical material from their churches? (I don't see that this would support the original comment -- isn't any private organisation entitled to self-definition? Some of the coptic apocrypha is even derived from folk-tales or similar, such as the Legend of Hilaria).

I think that I'd be more willing to believe in church-sponsored violence in this area later on, as the Greek church becomes entangled with and compromised by the state. People like the Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria seem difficult to distinguish from local gang bosses, to me anyway.

It's not an issue that I want to discuss here, but if such people were alive today, might they jeer that we who live in the age of political correctness can't reasonably object to the censorship of other ages? Let's be fair to all sides.
In my post #5, I provided good evidence of deplorable abuse by early Christians, and of course, in later centuries, the largest colonial empire in history by far under a single religions was conquered by Christian nations by means of persecution, murder, and theft of property.

Regardless of any apologetic issue, including the Resurrection, the ultimate issue is the nature of God. What evidence do you have that God is not an evil God who is masquerading as a good God and is planning to send everyone to hell? In addition, what evidence do you have that the risen Jesus was not an alien imposter?

Your scholarship is impressive, but no amount of scholarship can reliably determine what the nature of God really is. All of your years of research are useless even if the Resurrection occurred.
Johnny Skeptic is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 01:09 PM   #14
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 2,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sky kunde
Did the early church really burn or destroy a lot of "dangerous" documents? Which evidences supports that?
Sure. That's why the Nag Hammadi documents were hidden. This happened shortly after 367 when Athanasius (the bishop of Alexandria) 39th Festal Letter, condemned unapproved books.

It could all be coincidence. Maybe Athanasius :angel: was only making a meek suggestion, the Nag Hammadi texts weren't hidden, just put in the 4th century equivalent of a "store and lock" and these manuscripts disappeared from the face of the earth because nobody remebered to copy them. All benign.

Either that or the orthodox burned :devil2: them.

Jake Jones IV
jakejonesiv is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 02:24 PM   #15
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse
Quote:
On Athanasius's violence against his enemies, When Jesus Became God cites a letter that has been found from one priest to another that complains of Athanasius's oppression of his opponents.
Which letter?

All the best,

Roger Pearse
papyrus 1914 in Bell Jews and Christians in Egypt Vol VI 1924. On the usual interpretation this was written by Callistus a Melitian (ie schismatic) cleric in 335 to a colleague complining of Athanasius' harsh measures
Quote:
For he arrested the bishop of the lower country and shut him up in the meat market and he shut up a presbyter of those parts also in the lock-up and a deacon in the great prison and Herascius has been imprisoned since the 26th of Pachon in the camp. I thank the Lord God that the beatings which he was receiving have ceased
One should note that the generally accepted interpretation of this letter as referring to Athanasius has been challenged.

There is a discussion of Athanasius' behaviour in the light of this and other evidence, in Hanson's The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 05:19 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 701
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse
You mean the Diatessaron, I think; this is Theodoret of Cyrrhus in the 5th century. But again I don't see how it can reasonably be argued that he had no right to do this.
Yes, sorry, I did mean the Diatessaron. I didn't say anything about whether he had the right to do it or not. The OP asked whether it had happened, not whether those responsible had the right to do it.


Quote:
Which letter?

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Thanks, Andrew, for identifying the document. I hadn't realized that the identification of Athanasius was controversial.
robto is offline  
Old 01-31-2006, 06:05 AM   #17
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 2,014
Default 99% of Ancient Literature Perished at Hands of Christians

To my mind there is no doubt that the 99% of Ancient literature that perished before the end of antiquity was the result of deliberate policies of the Christian Emperors and the Roman Church in the Fourth Century.

There was an extensive system of libraries both public and private that preserved perhaps a hundred thousand books into the Fourth century, when Christians gained power, I believe there was a deliberate and systematic attempt to destroy this literature, led by and carried out by Christians.

To get an idea of the number of books available in the Third Century, before Christians took power, we need only look at the work of Diogenes Laertius. In his single first book on the Philosopher Thales, he quotes the following authors and works, whom he had access to:
1)Demetrius Phalereus, "Catalogue of the Archons," 2)Hieronymus, of Rhodes, "Miscellaneous Memoranda," 3)Callimachus "Iambic," 4)Eleusis "History of Achilles," 5)Alexander the Myndian "Traditions," 6) Eudoxus of Cnidos 7) Euanthes of Miletus, 8) Daimachus the Platonic philosopher, 9)Clearchus, 10) Andron "The Tripod," 11)Phanodicus, 12) Lobon, of Argos, 13) Apollodorus, "Chronicles," 14) Demetrius of Magnesia, "Treatise on People and Things of the Same Name," 15) Duris, "On Painting," 16) Dionysius, 17)"Criticisms," 18) Antisthenes, "Successions," 19) Damon the Cyrenaean, 20) Archetimus, the Syracusian, 21) Ephorus, 22) Leander, 23) Dicaearchus, 24)Hermippus, "Treatise on the Wise Men," 25)Hippobotus in his Description of the Philosophers


Again these are just the works mentioning the philosopher Thales that Diogenes Laertes has access to in the Third century. We may assume that these works and authors were recognized as having value into the Fourth century. The Roman emperors and the Roman peoples before Constantine had the greatest reason to preserve all these works and there is nothing to suggest that they deliberately destroyed a single one of them. Cities and Families were extremely proud of their libraries and naturally sort to preserve them. It was only the Christians who saw the works of the ancient world as virtually valueless, except for a few text that might support a few of their theological propositions. It was only these that they deemed worthy of preservation. One Thousand Years of poetry, plays, histories, memoirs, and works on art, religion and science were systematically destroyed at the hands of the Christians when they obtained power over the Roman Empire.

While one may argue that Christians were under no obligation to preserve or copy works that did not promote their world viewpoint, I prefer to think as human beings, they were under an obligation to their fellow human beings to share this wealth and legacy with future generations. It is a mark of their extreme selfishness, inhumanity, and self-absorption that they did not.

Warmly,

PhilosopherJay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse
Do they?

The work of Celsus is known only from two sources. Origen read it, and said he'd never heard of it or met anyone who had. But at the request of the person who sent it to him, he wrote Contra Celsum, which preserves a lot of it. Origen didn't destroy it. The only other mention of the work in the whole of antiquity is by Eusebius of Caesarea in Contra Hieroclem. It is not clear whether he had seen it, or had merely read Origen. So what evidence of deliberate destruction exists?

As for Porphyry's libel against the Christians, Constantine (not the church) ordered that it should be destroyed, ca. 325. But there is no evidence that anything happened, and some that it did not; Theodosius II in 448 issued the same order. But again we have no evidence that anything happened -- the very same legal code contains repeated evidence that late emperors could not get their edicts through the bureaucracy that was choking the empire. Again, what evidence of actual destruction exists, or of any order by the church?

The real reason both works are lost is the same reason that 99% of ancient literature is lost: the society that gave it birth perished. Indeed much literature was lost before the end of antiquity -- the compiler of the Theodosian code complains that he couldn't obtain earlier codes by second-century jurists such as Ulpian and Papinian. Books may occasionally continue to physically exist (such as the 5th century codex of Livy which alone preserves books 41-45, which was never copied and just loitered for centuries in a monastery tower in Germany). But most require someone to copy them. Books written to insult those who have to do that copying have few chances to exist. Yet even so, the other works of Porphyry were copied, and much anti-Christian material by Julian the Apostate. Even the New History of Zosimus was copied by Christian monks.

Celsus' pamphlet probably perished long before the end of antiquity. But the work of Porphyry probably perished because it was too stupid for words, in the eyes of the potential copyists. Have a look at this for why.

Note that Wikipedia is not a source of reliable information, and is often a source of deliberately distorted information on matters of religion.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
PhilosopherJay is offline  
Old 01-31-2006, 08:07 AM   #18
Bede
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think you'll find that Diogenes only had a list of titles. He never actually saw any of the works you refer to and his information on Thales comes from secondary sources.

Needless to say, Roger is right and Christians never had a policy to destroy pagan science and literature. The standard work on the subject Reynold's Scribes and Scholars. Read it before making any more pronouncements on the subject.

Best wishes

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason
 
Old 02-01-2006, 09:37 AM   #19
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 2,014
Default

Hi Bede,

I did not include on my list the books that Diogenes does not cite but only names. I think if you read him you'll find that that his knowledge of his sources indicates that he is reading them directly. For example:

Hieronymus, of Rhodes, also tells us, in the second book of his Miscellaneous Memoranda, that when he was desirous to show that it was easy to get rich, he, foreseeing that there would be a great crop of olives, took some large plantations of olive trees, and so made a great deal of money.

VI. He asserted water to be the principle of all things, and that the world had life, and was full of daemons: they say, too, that he was the original definer of the seasons of the year, and that it was he who divided the year into three hundred and sixty-five days. And he never had any teacher except during the time that he went to Egypt, and associated with the priests. Hieronymus also says that he measured the Pyramids: watching their shadow, and calculating when they were of the same size as that was. He lived with Thrasybulus the tyrant of Miletus, as we are informed by Minyas.

VII. Now it is known to every one what happened with respect to the tripod that was found by the fishermen and sent to the wise men by the people of the Milesians, For they say that some Ionian youths bought a cast of their nets from some Milesian fishermen. And when the tripod was drawn up in the net there was a dispute about it; until the Milesians sent to Delphi: and the God gave them the following answer:

You ask about the tripod, to whom you shall present it;
'Tis for the wisest, I reply, that fortune surely meant it.

Accordingly they gave it to Thales, and he gave it to someone, who again handed it over to another, till it came to Solon. But he said that it was the God himself who was the first in wisdom; and so he sent it to Delphi. But Callimachus gives a different account of this in his Iambic taking the tradition which he mentions from Leander the Milesian; for he says that a certain Arcadian of the name of Bathycles, when dying, left a goblet behind him with an injunction that it should be given to the first of the wise men. And it was given to Thales, and went the whole circle till it came back to Thales, on which he sent it to Apollo Didymaeus, adding (according to Callimachus,) the following distich:

Thales, who's twice received me as a prize,
Gives me to him who rules the race of Neleus.

And the prose inscription runs thus:

Thales the son of Examyas, a Milesian, offers this to Apollo Didymaeus, having twice received it from the Greeks as the reward for virtue.

And the name of the son of Bathycles who carved the goblet about from one to the other, was Thyrion, as Eleusis tells us in his History of Achilles. And Alexander the Myndian agrees with him in the ninth book of his Traditions. But Eudoxus of Cnidos, and Euanthes of Miletus, say that one of the friends of Croesus received from the king a golden goblet, for the purpose of giving it to the wisest of the Greeks; and that he gave it to Thales, and that it came round to Chilon, and that he inquired of the God at Delphi who was wiser than himself; and that the God replied, Myson, whom we shall mention hereafter. (He is the man whom Eudoxus places among the seven wise men instead of Cleobulus ; but Plato inserts his name instead of Periander.) The God accordingly made this reply concerning him:

I say that Myson the Aetoean sage,
The citizen of Chen, is wiser far
In his deep mind than you.

The person who went to the temple to ask the question was Anacharsis ; but again Daimachus the Platonic philosopher, and Clearchus, state that the goblet was sent by Croesus to Pittacus, and so was carried round to the different men. But Andron, in his book called The Tripod, says that the Argives offered the tripod as a prize for excellence to the wisest of the Greeks; and that Aristodemus, a Spartan, was judged to deserve it, but that he yielded the palm to Chilon; and Alcaeus mentions Aristodemus in these lines:..


As you can see, Diogenes is directly quoting from and weighting the opinions of the texts that he is citing, so there can be no question that he is just reading a list of names of titles of books.

The Loeb Classical Library edition states:

This rich compendium on the lives and doctrines of philosophers ranges over three centuries, from Thales to Epicurus (to whom the whole tenth book is devoted); 45 important figures are portrayed. Diogenes Laertius carefully compiled his information from hundreds of sources and enriches his accounts with numerous quotations.


In the villa of the papyri at Herculaneum some 2000 scolls were found. Since this was an ordinary small town of only 5000 people, we may suspect that in larger, more urban areas, libraries of perhaps 10,000 scrolls would be common. Again, we are talking about a very small town in the year 80. By the year 250 (approximately when Diogenes wrote), the size of private libraries would probably have increased substantially. I find no reason to doubt that Diogenes owned and read the several hundred sources that he quotes in his texts. While I have heard of the allegations that he used compilations, I have not encountered the reasons for such a belief.

As far as the general question of whether Christians had a policy of destroying scientific and literary works, it has been quite some time, 20 years or more since I investigated the proposition and came to the conclusion that they had. I will reinvestigate the question starting from your website and the source book you suggested and get back to you on it.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin





Quote:
Originally Posted by Bede
I think you'll find that Diogenes only had a list of titles. He never actually saw any of the works you refer to and his information on Thales comes from secondary sources.

Needless to say, Roger is right and Christians never had a policy to destroy pagan science and literature. The standard work on the subject Reynold's Scribes and Scholars. Read it before making any more pronouncements on the subject.

Best wishes

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason
PhilosopherJay is offline  
Old 02-01-2006, 11:47 AM   #20
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,796
Default Did the early church really destroy documents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bede
I think you'll find that Diogenes only had a list of titles. He never actually saw any of the works you refer to and his information on Thales comes from secondary sources.

Needless to say, Roger is right and Christians never had a policy to destroy pagan science and literature. The standard work on the subject Reynold's Scribes and Scholars. Read it before making any more pronouncements on the subject. [URL="http://www.bede.org.uk"]Bede's Library - faith and reason.
Well, I wonder where Dr. Elaine Pagels and Dr. Larry Taylor got their information from. Consider the following:

Elaine Pagels: For nearly 2,000 years, Christian tradition has preserved and revered orthodox writings that denounce the Gnostics, while suppressing and virtually destroying the Gnostic writings themselves. Now, for the first time, certain texts discovered at Nag Hammadi reveal the other side of the coin: how Gnostics denounced the orthodox. The 'Second Treatise of the Great Seth' polemicizes against orthodox Christianity, contrasting it with the 'true church' of the Gnostics. Speaking for those he calls the sons of light, the author says: '...we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant (pagans), but also by those think they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals.'"

Larry Taylor: How does this apply to the story of Jesus? Simply that all of the early critics are dead. Skeptical opinions were banned. Christian opinions, other than those of the establishment, were banned. Books were destroyed, and later, heretics were burned.

Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2002:

By the 3rd century Gnosticism began to succumb to orthodox Christian opposition and persecution. Partly in reaction to the Gnostic heresy, the church strengthened its organization by centralizing authority in the office of bishop, which made its effort to suppress the poorly organized Gnostics more effective.

In his book titled ‘The Religious Quests of the Graeco-Roman World,’ Christian author S. Angus, Ph.D., D.Lit., D.D., says the following:

“No one could have dreamed that the Christians, who had themselves suffered so much from persecution and protested so vehemently against the injustice and futility of persecution, would so quickly have turned persecutors and surpassed their Pagan predecessors in fanatical savagery and efficiency, utterly oblivious of the Beatitude of the Divine Master (Matt. V. 10, 44, 45). It became ominous for subsequent history that the first General Council of the Church was signalized by bitter excommunications and banishments. Christians, having acquired the art of disposing of hostile criticism by searching out and burning the objectionable books of their Pagan adversaries, learned to apply the same method to the works of such groups of Christians as were not in power or in favour for the time; when this method proved unsatisfactory, they found it expedient to burn their bodies. The chained skeleton found in the Mithraic chapel at Sarrebourg testified to the drastic means employed by Christians in making the truth conquer otherwise than by the methods and exemplified by the Founder. The stripping and torture to death with oyster-shells in a Christian church and the subsequent mangling of limb from limb of Hypatia, the noblest representative of Neo-Platonism of her day, by the violent Nitrian monks and servitors of a Christian bishop, and probably with his connivance, were symptomatic and prophetic of the intolerance and fanaticism which Christianity was to direct throughout the centuries upon its disobedient members and troublesome minorities until the day – yet to dawn – when a purer, more convincing because more spiritual, Christianity gains ‘the consent of happier generation, the applause of less superstitious ages.’�

It is reasonable to assume that early Christians destroyed competing documents. Are you aware of ANY competing documents that Christians preserved? It is a fact that the largest colonial empire under a single religion by far was conquered by Christian nations by means of persecution, murder, and theft of property. It is also a fact for about 90% of the time since Christianity was founded, the majority of Christians endoresed slavery and the subjugation of women.
Johnny Skeptic is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:59 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.