spamandham

I think we know virtually nothing about Paul. All we have are outrageously untrustworthy sources, so sure, Paul might as well be a double agent...or a travel agent for that matter.

storytime

DCH

Ok,, I think your speculation makes about as much sense as mine, however, I like mine better.

I can read Paul as a double-agent in his desire to protect the Jews at Jerusalem, their right to their inherited land, their religious practices, etc. I can also read Paul in his double-agent role in achieving protection for the Jews via including non-Jewish Gentiles by way of giving them hope. "Hope in Christ" as Paul preached that hope was before the days of Abraham and therein "faith" played it's part in constructing a new religion for the Gentile world. This new faith based religion would supposedly keep the Gentiles from claiming Jewish land[Judea] as their rightful inheritance as their inheritance would be in a life after death in a sky-built heavenly kingdom. The resurrection theme would give the Gentiles what they desired in equality with the Jews. Just as it is preached today by Christians. However, it would not give the Gentiles actual land owned and controled by the Jews then nor now. Paul sought to bridge the gap, so to speak in giving what each party wanted. Thus his conspiracy seems to have succeeded as Gentiles bought into his faith-before-Abraham doctrine. Also, Paul said that he did not build on another man's foundation, namely the foundation of Jesus the Christ as Jesus the Jew would not have agreed to the Conspiracy of Paul. But Paul also had a vow to destroy the churches and in his faith-before-Abraham he pulled it off. It didn't matter to Paul that he deceived the Gentiles according to "my gospel"; what mattered is how he maintained the policy of "the Jew first and then the Gentile" succession, because the Jewish belief was that all humanity "has a place in the world to come". Paul didn't tell the Gentiles that that place was on earth and in future generations of both Jews and Gentiles. Paul skillfully guided the Gentiles attention in another direction, away from Jewish Jerusalem, Judea.

I think Paul's double-agent role fits quite nicely into his scheme of things.

storytime

I can see Paul as the price-wise dotcom William Shatner of his day. Really, I can. :lol:

bacht

Well, there are at least two Pauls to consider: some apocalyptic Jew in the 1st C preparing for the Day of the Lord, or a 2nd C salesman of Jewish antiquities to the gentiles. In the first case he seems to be focused on the imminent end of things, with little concern for his countrymen, since it'll be all over soon anyway. In the second case Paul can ignore the Jews since the temple is gone, the Jewish state is gone, and there's not much he can do for diaspora Jews anyway. This preacher might not even have been Jewish.

Then there's the possibility that Paul was invented to counter-act Marcion, but I don't think you want to go there

storytime

humm...doesn't Paul's freeborn status present him as having both Jewish and Gentile[Roman] citizenship? Which fits perfectly, imo, into his role as double-agent. There's no ancestry in parents given for Paul, (or maybe I missed it), so he very well could have been born of Jewish/Gentile heritage.

storytime

I haven't read much about Marcion. Any recommended links?

bacht

Well, in Acts Paul claims to be a Roman citizen but I don't recall this being mentioned in his letters, which are usually considered to be earlier compositions (at least the kernel of them). Are you saying that he was of high enough status to influence imperial policy towards the Jews? His whole ministry was directed at gentiles, in fact he got in trouble for this with the Jerusalem crowd. Virtually all his dealings with Jews were negative in the Acts stories, and in his letters he mentions beatings etc. If any of this is true it seems the Jews didn't want his help. In the apocrypha Paul is even portrayed as an agent of the devil in the eyes of the Jews.

bacht

here are some threads from the last year:

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....hlight=marcion

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....hlight=marcion

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....hlight=marcion

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....hlight=marcion

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....hlight=marcion

storytime

Paul may have earned high enough status among his fellow Pharisee priests being educated with that sect and being a Roman citizen also, and could have been seen by Roman officials as a very beneficial fellow to them.

This is speculation on Paul's being a double agent. I can imagine that he was, partly due to his "Israel[Jew] first" policy and his knowing his laws and tradition. For Paul to claim himself being an educated Pharisee, " a Pharisee of the Pharisee's" and not know the Jewish laws and tradition that could not accept any man not circumcised and unwilling to observe the laws of Moses, is stranger than fiction. For Paul to seek a means of protecting Jerusalem and his brethren Jews by giving Gentiles hope in a sky kingdom but not inheritance with the Jews in land rights seems a perfect conspiracy, imo, at the moment - because I may speculate a little differently later on.

But ask yourself, in those days, why would a Jewish Pharisee travel throughout the Roman Empire teaching a gospel of hope to Gentiles when his Jewish laws and tradition strictly prohibited uncircumcised and lawless people from inheritance rights equal to Jews? The "promised land" was given to Jews. Nothing was given to Gentiles. But to detour the Gentiles away from Jewish rights in land, to erect a wall of defense against the Gentiles, Paul gives the Gentiles a heavenly home to satisfy their desire for a place to call their own. They would have a place in the world to come as Paul directed their attention skyward. Would Pauls gospel then be of benefit to Rome also?

And why didn't Jewish leaders see Paul's gospel as a barrier of protection for their Jewish tradition and land rights? Maybe some did. Keeping the Gentiles busy looking skyward for their heavenly reward as their inheritance, while the Jews continued doing their Jewish thing maintaining their land and worship practices seems like a pretty good conspiracy plot for building a fence around Jerusalem[Jews, Judaism] to me.

storytime

bacht,

Let me say this: I simply cannot imagine a guy named Paul living more than the time it took to get the words out of his mouth that he was taking inheritance rights of Jews to the Gentiles. I can see him being stoned beyond recognition by Jews according to their law. Such a "fool" would not have been permitted to live, on command of God, much less argue his points among Jews of his day.