Not_Registered

Pleas quote me saying “I can’t find any evidence.�

People continually ask for a quote or saying of Jesus’ where his wisdom is conveyed. Yet, you do not realize that which is ask for (i.e. an excerpt from Jesus’ life) will, if you all have done as you claim and read the gospels, will do nothing to prove to you Jesus’ wisdom. Bear with me, but I have a friend who believes Seinfield is the funniest show ever, so, just to mess with him, I tell him the show isn’t really funny (even though I do think it is funny). Anytime we are at his house and Seinfield is on we will watch the show for a couple of minutes and then, depending on the quality of that couple of minutes, I will either say “see the show isn’t that funny� or “who cares that was just one thing that funny, the show still isn’t that funny.� He can never prove to me that the show is funny by showing me just a couple of minutes.

It’s the same as when you give a friend a CD to listen to because you think it’s good, but they only listen to a the first 30 seconds of one of the songs and is like “well I guess it’s okay.� They haven’t listened to the CD in full and can’t see the entire body of work. I enjoy reading Calvin and Hobbes (by Bill Watterson). Every once in a while I’ll ask my friend to read a particular comic strip that I find funny. He either won’t find it funny or will find it slightly funny, but still wont see Calvin and Hobbes as being that funny. All the while, I’m thinking to myself “Nooooooo, you don’t get it, it is funny. Can’t you see that Calvin polling his father or making absurd snowmen is funny.� I react the same way my friend might say “Nooooooo, can’t you see it is funny when George snaps over little things. You don’t get it.� We are basing our meter, by which we gauge, on the entire body of work. You must know how Calvin is, to find those things funny. You must be acquainted with George and his character to find those things funny.

Some of you continue to ask me to prove Jesus’ wisdom by showing you a couple minutes out of the season, a few seconds from the CD, or a sliver instead of the entire body of work. Like I’ve said, if you have already read the entire body of work (i.e. the gospels) and, based on that, have not objectively (or while disregarding any preconceived notions) come to the conclusion that Jesus was wise, then me restating something you have already read is not going to change that.


I see your point, and I would have to agree. I did not realize, at first, how difficult, because of the reasons given in my above response, that debating Jesus’ wisdom would be. It is unlike other topics which are usually debated, like whether or not a certain story means one thing or another, because the focus is on that one story. It is unlike debating the divinity of Jesus, because there are only a few passages from the gospels that deal with that, whereas, the topic I raise would require a study of the entire gospels. It is not that Jesus’ wisdom is not up for debate, it is that I do not see a reasonable way in which to debate it. One can say I do not believe Jesus to be wise and thus the burden of proof is on me to prove Jesus’ wisdom, but that is a daunting task because it would entail me giving a significant number of passages and explaining why I believe those passages display Jesus’ wisdom. It would also be daunting because, as I have said before, seeing Jesus as having wisdom is somewhat of an intrapersonal perception. In other words, it is not definitive or absolute.


Wisdom and deception are two different things. I guess then you would believe Michael Moore to be wise?


You effortlessly accept someone’s assertion that Oprah is a “child prodigy�, while putting those who say Jesus is God under intense scrutiny. Amazing how convenience plays such a role in what you will or will not believe. I say George Bush was a “child prodigy.� Do you believe me? No, I’m sure you question my credibility. Maybe if I had said Vicar Philip you would change your mind.

Sven

So, to summarize, you only want to discuss with people who read the gospel and came to the same conclusion as you: That Jesus was wise.
Then you are indeed at the wrong discussion board.

Before or after creating this thread?

One example for a start nevertheless would have been nice.

And finally (already asked by some others): The question makes as much sense as asking "Why was Sokrates/Newton/Einstein/etc. so wise?"
Quite simply because, statisically, there are always some folks who are far ahead of everyone else. This is so obvious that I've no idea why creating a thread to answer this question was necessary.

Clutch

Inference to the best explanation; surely if you had an argument you'd present it.

Notice, for instance, that you spend four longish paragraphs in the above-quoted post alone explaining why there's no very, very brief way to establish that Jesus should be regarded as exceptionally, or even particularly, wise.

But nobody has required that your argument be brief. How many words in this thread have you now written in demurring from the obligation to defend the presupposition of the question in its title? What sort of argument could you have given with that much effort -- if there was one to give?

And after all the digression, you come back to the same well-poisoning excuse I'd already identified:

Right: The reason I can't find any argument is because you wouldn't believe me if I could.

It seems at least as reasonable, and no less charitable, to think that your own reasons for holding Jesus to have been wise would not survive critical examination, and that for this reason must be shielded from view.

Not_Registered

I said to Amaleq13 in my prior reply (in response to his statement which brought out the same exact point you just did): "I see your point, and I would have to agree." So, yeah, Sven I already agreed to that.

I did not adequately prepare for a full debate on Jesus' wisdom. That was my mistake. I have some passages from the bible that I believe help to show instances of Jesus being wise, but not enough to aid in my defense to create a perception of Jesus being wise.


As I said, again in my prior reply, "I did not realize, at first,..." That means I recently (i.e. after creating this thread) have come to that realization.


As I have said numerous times, I'm not claiming Jesus (if you believe Him to be wise) to be the only wise man ever. That's ludicrous. I even stated that Einstein could be perceived to have been wise. If you, Sven, believe Jesus to be wise and say "Yeah, so what" (or see no point in the matter) then so be it. I have said that is a possibility that I am aware of. The creation of this thread was in the chance that someone might consciously come to a realization based on their belief of Jesus being wise. I'm sure, Sven, you have known something, but not consciously come to a realization based on this knowledge. Even if it was just walking by a certain building or structure everyday and then one day you notice something special about it that you had never consciously realized before and you might say or think "Hmmm, I never noticed that."

Sven

So what? I nowhere claimed that you said something like this.

What kind of "realization" do you have in mind?

I've no idea why this is any way relevant to this (which you snipped):
"Quite simply because, statisically, there are always some folks who are far ahead of everyone else. This is so obvious that I've no idea why creating a thread to answer this question was necessary."

Not_Registered

Inference?....Inference? Well, Christians use inference to deduce that Jesus claimed to be divine. Do they use the same inference atheist use to deduce the exact opposite. I question the objectivity of inference. So, to avoid any use of inference, I will make it clear for you ,as to whether I have an argument or not, and release an official statement.


I, Not_Registered, officially release the following statement:
"I do have an argument to back my claim that Jesus is wise."

Signature:Not_Registered Date: 8/02/04

Clutch

For pete's sake, how do you think debate works?

Consider: I have an argument that Pol Pot was a great humanitarian. Now, let's consider the question, How was Pol Pot such a great humanitarian?

Any doubts about the presupposition of this question will simply be met with my assurance that I possess an argument, curiously impossible to articulate, but sufficient to establish my assumption...

Not_Registered

I thought this is what you had assumed I was saying. I was wrong.


Then disregard it.


I'm glad you ask. A realization that, would not be solely responsible for but instead, could aid in an open-mindedness to the possibility that Jesus was "more than just a man."

Sven

This is of course in contrast to what you earlier claimed:

(emphasis mine)

And I have no idea why I should suspect that "Jesus was more than a man" because he was wise. I know with great certainty that Newton was much more wise than every other human at his time - but it never occured to me to suspect than "Newton was more than a man".

Not_Registered

As I have said I did not adequately prepare for a debate on whether Jesus was wise or not (see the quote below). I have some arguments that show instances of Jesus' wisdom, but not enough arguments (bible passages, explainations, completely-developed defenses, etc) to maintain a full debate on the issue. As I have said, that was my fault for not being fully prepared before opening this thread. Your efforts though Clutch, are to make it seem as though there is no, or at least I have no, arguments whatsoever to defend my assertion that Jesus is wise. This is not the case. I just do not have enough completely-developed defenses to "create a perception of Jesus being wise."