Ben C Smith

I pretty much agree with all of this. With the possible exception that we might disagree on what exactly the genre is.

Well, nor am I myself sure. That is why I called it a suspicion. I also suspect that the author knew stuff from oral transmission (since he specifically says that texts could not hold all the stories). But that is another story, so to speak.

Again, I agree.

(Who are you, and what have you done with Jay Raskin?)

Unvarnished truth is math. There is no unvarnished truth in history.

May is right.

Well, here we disagree (at last). Hyperbole is hyperbole, and is easily recognized as such, whether it be in history or in fiction or in any other genre in between.

It sounds, BTW, like you are trying to identify our author as an unreliable narrator.

Ben.

patcleaver

The vast majority of people who were blind were born blind. It was a common birth defect that was thought to result from the sin of the parents. Are you seriously claiming that blind people know what trees and walking people look like?

Later it says that his parents claim that he was blind from birth - but there is a hint that they are lying - can you find it? Come on try to play the game.

Ben C Smith

I am seriously claiming that there are plenty of blind people who know what trees and people look like. I do not have exact percentages. Do you?

You originally referenced Mark 8.22-26. I was responding to your comments on Mark 8.22-26, not on anything in John (9.20).

Ben.

patcleaver

Wow, any farmer knows that a field with a great deal of grass would have tall grass. Regardless, Jesus would have picked a good field with grass of ideal height for his trick. The only reason they are telling you that there is a great deal of grass is that its a clue. You do know what a clue is don't you?

Jeff you still don't seem to understand. Its a mystery game! The game is to figure out how the fake messiah faked the miracle. If the text had said that they got baskets of fish and bread out of a cache then it wouldn't be much of a mystery would it now?

One of the purposes of the miracles in the NT seems to be entertainment of the readers. It seems to be a game in which your supposed to be trying to figure out how Jesus faked the miracle and find the clues and figure out that he could have used the grass and a cache. The Jesus in the story sure was a crafty character wasn't he.

patcleaver

Sorry, your right about John (9.20), same story different gospel.

Ben C Smith

Thank you for this concession.

We are back to your claim, which (by way of reminder) was that a blind person would not know what trees or people look like. I asked you why not. You responded by saying that most blind people were born blind. Time to back that claim up, my friend.

Wikipedia says that most visual impairment is caused by disease and malnutrition; also that, according to 2002 World Health Organization estimates, the most common causes of blindness are as follows:

Cataracts (47.8%).
Glaucoma (12.3%).
Uveitis (10.2%).
Age-related macular degeneration (8.7%).
Trachoma (3.6%).
Corneal opacity (5.1%).
Diabetic retinopathy (4.8%).

I am not in a position to tell whether these statistics are accurate or not. But I do not think I have ever personally known anybody who was blind from birth; but I have known quite a few people who were blind from cataracts, diabetes, and degeneration.

So — how do you know that most cases of blindness were (you used the past tense; did you intend to set modernity off from antiquity?) congenital?

Ben.

Jeffrey Gibson

Why do you assume that this is a field? And would grass be tall there in March (cf. 6:4)?

How you know this is beyond me. And is there anything in Jn. 6 that indicates that Jesus anticipated a crowd coming to him, let alone the one of the size that did?

But more to the point, it isn't an answer to my question. Can you please show me by producing evidence from Greek texts that the Greek expression underlying the word "much" was ever thought to mean when used with reference to a grass, and especially to a grassy place located in the hill country on the other side of the Sea of Tiberias (cf. 6:3), to mean "tall".

Do you know what the Greek word translated as "much" (or for that matter, for "grass") is?

Jeffrey

patcleaver

In the countryside land is divided into areas for grazing and areas for crops and areas that are too rocky or steep for crops or grazing. The areas for crops and grazing are called fields. A crowd gathered to hear a preacher would be in a field.

No I think that would have made the method that Jesus used too obvious. Remember that the gospel is a game.

After reconsideration, I think that if Mark had used a word that meant "tall" then that would have been too good a clue for the mystery game. After all, its supposed to be challenging.

BTW Jeffrey, what do you think is the most accurate literal translation of the NT is.

patcleaver

Thanks for the research Ben. I think that I read somewhere that the most common cause of blindness, before modern times, was gonorrhea, contracted by a new-born at birth, which caused infant blindness. This is not really the issue anyway - see below.

(Mk 8:22-26) They came to Bethsaida, and some people brought a blind man and begged Jesus to touch him. 23 He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, "Do you see anything?" 24 He looked up and said, "I see people; they look like trees walking around." 25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man's eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. 25 Jesus sent him home, saying, "Don't go into the village."

The first issue is: Would a sophisticated first century Jew think that a blind man restored to sight would say: "I see people; they look like trees walking around"

The second issue is: Why would Mark tell us the following:

Jesus asked, "Do you see anything?" 24 He [the blind man] looked up and said, "I see people; they look like trees walking around." 25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man's eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.

It seems like a clue that the "blind man" is supposed to be a shill because there is no other reason for Mark to have Jesus ask the question and a real blind man would never have responded like he knew what a tree looked like.

Jeffrey Gibson

In the country side that is spoken of in Jn. 6? Have you been there? And where in Jn. 6 is this land spoken of as fit or set aside for crops and/or grazing?

Where in Jn 6 does it say that the crowd came to hear Jesus preach? And BTW, Matthew 5-7 disagrees with you about where people would go for this purpose. So does Mk. 1:5 and parallels. So does Mt. 11.

That you are making up as you go along.


In other words, the answer to my question is no. And the text you were referring to -- the one that has "much grass" -- is in John, not Mark.

Whatever it is, it will not allow you to do exegesis of the Greek text or allow you, or give you any grounds, to answer the question that you dodged twice now.

Jeffrey