Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-20-2013, 11:33 AM

Check out Matthew Kalman's blog

http://jamesossuarytrial.blogspot.com/

Kalman has a Kindle book (or via: amazon.co.uk) on the trial

outhouse · 01-20-2013, 01:15 PM

I dont know why this is even being debated, a known criminal and antiquities dealer, caught with a lab for forging, who has produced forgeries in the past, had possession of this for a long time.

This is someone who knew the importance of what he had, im guessing he was growing patina on it, letting it sit all this time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1344994.html

Golan was convicted Wednesday on four other charges, including trading unlicensed antiquities, possessing stolen artifacts and selling artifacts without a license.

More on this criminal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoash_Inscription

Under interrogation, Golan promised to reveal the location of the stone in exchange for immunity from prosecution.

This is Golan cutting deals to save his own criminal skin

Then police then conducted a new search in storage space that Golan had rented in Ramat Gan but had not originally disclosed to them. There the police found scores of artifacts, ancient seals and other inscriptions in various stages of production along with the tools to create the imitations. Under harsh questioning, Golan admitted that he knew about the Jehoash Inscription and promised to hand it over.

Duke Leto · 01-20-2013, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

I'll take that as a climb-down.

Your opinion on the matter isn't the one espoused by Hershel Shanks or the Jesus Dynasty nutball. It doesn't square with what NT scholars that believe in the historicity of James think. You aren't the person whose opinion I was interested in.

Your offense at my unwillingness to engage in a debate on James as understood by mainstream historians and Ossuary defender is meaningless to me.

TedM · 01-20-2013, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Check out Matthew Kalman's blog

http://jamesossuarytrial.blogspot.com/

Kalman has a Kindle book (or via: amazon.co.uk) on the trial

Thanks. I wish I had a Kindle. I'd get this book. Simply amazing to me that this Trial had only ONE reporter devoted to it.

Just had a thought, definitely along the conspiracy theory lines.

1. It seems highly unlikely that Joe Zias did not know who Golan was prior to the ossuary being revealed. How in the world could a man who had worked with the top guy in Israel to catalog all excavated ossuaries, AND who was familiar with the antique stores in Israel NOT know of arguably the most prolific collector in Israel, who himself owned 40 ossuaries? Does that make any sense at all? In addition, IMO the testimony of Zias about seeing the ossuary in the 1990s in an antique store is not very credible.

Hypothesis: He was very familiar with who Golan was, as was many in the IAA.

2. The outcome of the trial is bizarre. Supposedly the IAA had all this evidence against Golan including a forgery-lab with tools and partially finished forgeries, yet he was found blameless of all forgery charges. Might the truth be that the media 'somehow' was given an exaggerated portrayal of his 'operation'? How else to explain the outcome of nothing more than a slap on the wrist?

Why? The conspiracy theory: In 1980 Israeli excavators discovered the Tomb in Talpiot with the James Ossuary in it. Knowing it must have been the tomb of Jesus Christ, and that it would change Christianity significantly by virtue of the fact that Jesus' bones were in it, and Jesus was married and had a son, the IAA feared that the US would no longer support Israel because the Judeo-Christian relationship would be greatly injured. The stakes, they felt, were extremely high.

On a smaller scale this view was stated out loud by the widow of the man who was the chief archeologist of the 1980 excavation that discovered the Talpiot Tome, Yosef Gat, when she said the following 28 years later in a conference in the US:

Quote:

"My husband believed that this was Jesus's tomb, but because of his experiences as a Holocaust survivor, he was worried about a backlash of anti-Semitism and he didn't think he could say this."

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...704299,00.html

Isn't it reasonable that Yosef Gat shared this concern with at least SOMEONE in the IAA, who maybe concurred? Might this fear have resulted in action to reduce the strength of the evidence--perhaps the removal of the strongest indicator--the James ossuary. (There are claims of evidence of a missing ossuary). Is this kind of fear not reasonable to be widespread in Israel? Is this not a reasonable basis for a conspiracy--a cover-up, if you will?

Is it not possible the THE TOP collector of antiques in Israel actually was in cahoots with the IAA? Rather than destroy it, they decided to let him keep it, as he was simply a collector, never arrested for anything, not in need of money, and not really a dealer? They trusted him.

But, might it be that after 20 years this collector, Golan, decided he was no longer going to participate in a cover-up, and was going to let the world know the truth? And how? Not by conventional means, at all. He had to tell the world before the IAA would stop him! The speed at which this was revealed was unprecedented: just a few weeks.

And boy, was the IAA peeved! People think they were just embarrassed to not have known about the major 'find' before it was revealed. People think they were really angry about a non-provincial find hoisted upon the public with little scrutiny.

Is it not possible that in reality a few people at the IAA knew ALL ABOUT this ossuary, feared its unveiling, and that's the TRUE reason they were so incredibly angry? Is it not possible that Golan really didn't forge it and that's why the mountains of 'evidence' were eventually shown to be mole hills?

But Golan couldn't tell the truth -- that he got it from the Talpiot Tomb. There was, and still is, too much at stake. Instead he made up this story to let the top dogs at the IAA off the hook--saving his own skin as a result! But after Golan's arrest the ossuary was badly damaged by Israel police..and the IAA now REFUSES to return it to him even after his acquittal....hmm..

So the end result is that the world gets to decide without putting Golan or the IAA on the chopping block...

TedM · 01-20-2013, 01:57 PM

Conspiracy theory #2:

Same as the last post, except that Golan wasn't in cahoots, but had heard through his well-connected friends (perhaps Gat himself) about the James ossuary. He 'arranges' to purchase it and does so.

The IAA doesn't know, even though they know him well.

Same unfolding of story..same end result. No revealed conspiracy by IAA, but the world gets to know about it, letting both the IAA and Golan off the hook.

aa5874 · 01-20-2013, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Conspiracy theory #2:

Same as the last post, except that Golan wasn't in cahoots, but had heard through his well-connected friends (perhaps Gat himself) about the James ossuary. He 'arranges' to purchase it and does so.

The IAA doesn't know, even though they know him well.

Same unfolding of story..same end result. No revealed conspiracy by IAA, but the world gets to know about it, letting both the IAA and Golan off the hook.

You appear to be operating a propaganda machine. Please, just go and get the transcripts for the trial instead making up all sorts absurd worthless conspiracy theories from your imagination.

You seem to forget or don't care that the charge of forgery is a very serious matter.

Toto · 01-20-2013, 04:31 PM

You don't need a Kindle. You can download a free app from Amazon that will let you read Kindle books on your computer.

TedM · 01-20-2013, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You don't need a Kindle. You can download a free app from Amazon that will let you read Kindle books on your computer.

Thanks.

I see now that I didn't make it clear that Joe Zias says he had never even had heard of Golan. While possible, it is surprising to me given his incredible collection amassed over a 25 year span n prior to 2003:

Quote:

Prior to BAR and the Toronto Museum making the story public, I have never met nor spoken to Oded Golan, nor was I even aware of his name;

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/zia368024.shtml

TedM · 01-20-2013, 06:17 PM

Ok, well I got the kindle for The Jerusalem Report. It only had maybe 10 pages devoted to the Ossuary Trial issue..

But, it sure makes a case for Golan as having been a forgerer, even if the 2 main pieces themselves were not forged. It would be a shame if 2 of the greatest finds ever are dismissed because of the character of the man who revealed them..

Here are some excepts, including a more noble view of the IAA than what the 2 conspiracy theories put forward:

Quote:

They dispatched Amir Ganor, head of the IAA Antiquities Theft Unit.

..A few weeks later, his premises were raided again and he was arrested. By this time, the ossuary had returned from Canada. It was seized, together with what Ganor suddenly realized was damning evidence of a forgery operation churning out fake antiquities, including soil samples from
archaeological sites that could be used to fake patina, half-finished molds of ancient-looking figurines, sketches and computer mock-ups of what appeared to be plans to create ancient-looking seal impressions, half-finished seals, and an array of tools.

...“Until then, we did not suspect that we were dealing with forgeries,” Ganor says of his surprise at finding these items. “Then it began to dawn on me what Oded Golan was doing. I asked him: ‘Is it possible that you are faking antiquities?’”

....“There is a deep issue here which involves the bastardization of the archaeological record – and that’s something that we can’t just let go. That’s the thinking at the IAA.”

....Indeed, the IAA appears to have a broader agenda: to shut down even the legal trade in antiquities altogether. Ronny Reich says it does huge damage – a view widely held among the archaeological establishment.

....Golan responds that he is not damaging antiquities, but saving them. He estimates that some 1.5 million pieces have gone missing from the West Bank since 1967, smuggled out of the country and sold abroad. “The number of serious collectors who are buying antiquities in Israel is very small, negligible. It has no influence whatsoever. The big collections are already outside Israel,” Golan argues. Lost relics He points to two of his favorite items in the glass cabinets lining the walls of his living room. One is an

....He says most Bible-era relics like these found in the past century have been lost, and along with them any chance of knowing what life was like at the time. He argues that private collectors play a vital role in preserving this ancient history for future generations. “Over the past century, more than 90 percent of the most important pieces were not found in official excavations. If we hadn’t collected and documented the pieces coming through dealers, we would know almost nothing about real life in ancient times,” he said. But Reich disagrees. “Archeology is not just the object in itself – important, or beautiful, or precious as it may be. It is part of a context. Golan cannot give you the context of a single object in his vast collection. So what if I have
this pot or that inscription? I need the entire story, not just the object as a museum piece or an objet d’art. We will never be able to go back to the site and supplement the information that is missing because of what he has done. It’s nonsense,” he says.

But having determined that neither item was forged, there also seems little evidence of theft. Golan says the ossuary was purchased from Ot’man Waz-Waz before the 1978 Antiquities Law came into effect. “The Jehoash Tablet was shown to me in the late 1990s by Hasan Akilan, known as Abu Yaser, an antiquities dealer from East Jerusalem, and was later given to me,” says Golan. It appears on the dealer’s inventory, presented as an exhibit to the court.

(2012-07-12). The Jerusalem Report, July 2, 2012 (Kindle Locations 382-385). . Kindle Edition.

TedM · 01-21-2013, 07:35 AM

It's interesting that Matthew Kalman, the one person who covered the Trial more than anyone else, who is quite aware of findings of what appeared to be a 'forgery lab', and all the allegations of a ring of forgery, who has interacted with those who claim to be on the side of 'good', who wrote the very words found in my last post--believes the ossuary is real:

http://jamesossuarytrial.blogspot.co...ns-jesuss.html

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01-20-2013, 11:33 AM	#21
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Check out Matthew Kalman's blog http://jamesossuarytrial.blogspot.com/ Kalman has a Kindle book (or via: amazon.co.uk) on the trial

01-20-2013, 01:15 PM	#22
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	I dont know why this is even being debated, a known criminal and antiquities dealer, caught with a lab for forging, who has produced forgeries in the past, had possession of this for a long time. This is someone who knew the importance of what he had, im guessing he was growing patina on it, letting it sit all this time. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1344994.html Golan was convicted Wednesday on four other charges, including trading unlicensed antiquities, possessing stolen artifacts and selling artifacts without a license. More on this criminal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoash_Inscription Under interrogation, Golan promised to reveal the location of the stone in exchange for immunity from prosecution. This is Golan cutting deals to save his own criminal skin Then police then conducted a new search in storage space that Golan had rented in Ramat Gan but had not originally disclosed to them. There the police found scores of artifacts, ancient seals and other inscriptions in various stages of production along with the tools to create the imitations. Under harsh questioning, Golan admitted that he knew about the Jehoash Inscription and promised to hand it over.

01-20-2013, 01:57 PM	#25
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	Conspiracy theory #2: Same as the last post, except that Golan wasn't in cahoots, but had heard through his well-connected friends (perhaps Gat himself) about the James ossuary. He 'arranges' to purchase it and does so. The IAA doesn't know, even though they know him well. Same unfolding of story..same end result. No revealed conspiracy by IAA, but the world gets to know about it, letting both the IAA and Golan off the hook.

01-20-2013, 04:31 PM	#27
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	You don't need a Kindle. You can download a free app from Amazon that will let you read Kindle books on your computer.

01-21-2013, 07:35 AM	#30
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	It's interesting that Matthew Kalman, the one person who covered the Trial more than anyone else, who is quite aware of findings of what appeared to be a 'forgery lab', and all the allegations of a ring of forgery, who has interacted with those who claim to be on the side of 'good', who wrote the very words found in my last post--believes the ossuary is real: http://jamesossuarytrial.blogspot.co...ns-jesuss.html

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