Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ksen · 03-07-2008, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

The authorities didn’t understand Jesus words better, they were trying to pre-empt what they thought the disciples might try to do.

I see.

When the authorities thought that by saying he would rise after 3 days, Jesus was saying he would rise from the tomb after 3 days, they didn't understand Jesus words any better than people who were well aware that they had the power to raise Jesus from the dead themselves....

You haven't shown that the authorities believed any such thing. The only thing you've shown is that the authorities were worried about Jesus' body being stolen.

Steven Carr · 03-07-2008, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

I see.

When the authorities thought that by saying he would rise after 3 days, Jesus was saying he would rise from the tomb after 3 days, they didn't understand Jesus words any better than people who were well aware that they had the power to raise Jesus from the dead themselves....

You haven't shown that the authorities believed any such thing. The only thing you've shown is that the authorities were worried about Jesus' body being stolen.

So the authorities never believed Jesus said he would rise after 3 days.

They just assumed there was a very real chance of the disciples believing Jesus said he would rise after 3 days, and so stealing the body to make the prophecy look like it came true.

How did the authorities understand what prophecy of Jesus had been made that the disciples might try to fake?

Chili · 03-07-2008, 07:06 AM

Johnny, in a book where the sun was created when light already was the answer to your riddles may need to be found in this prior light.

So are you here as entertainer or just waisting our time, or what?

Johnny Skeptic · 03-07-2008, 10:38 AM

Message to ksen: John says "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." Luke says "He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words,......." If the women knew not the scripture, how could they have remembered his words?
How could Mary have thought that the body had been moved if she had remembered Jesus' words when an angel reminded her that he had said that he would rise from the dead?

When Jesus appeared to Mary at the tomb, is it your position that it was he first told her that he had risen from the dead, or an angel? Matthew, Mark, and Luke say that it was an angel. John indicates that it was Jesus.

If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it is reasonable to assume that his followers would have believed that he would rise from the dead too, especially since they would have believed that it was God's power that actually raised Lazarus from the dead, not Jesus' power.

If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it is not likely that an entire group of women would forget about that, well at least based upon what Luke says. If we go by what John says, the women did not know that Jesus said that he would rise from the dead.

ksen · 03-07-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to ksen: John says "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." Luke says "He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words,......." If the women knew not the scripture, how could they have remembered his words?
How could Mary have thought that the body had been moved if she had remembered Jesus' words when an angel reminded her that he had said that he would rise from the dead?

When Jesus appeared to Mary at the tomb, is it your position that it was he first told her that he had risen from the dead, or an angel? Matthew, Mark, and Luke say that it was an angel. John indicates that it was Jesus.

If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it is reasonable to assume that his followers would have believed that he would rise from the dead too, especially since they would have believed that it was God's power that actually raised Lazarus from the dead, not Jesus' power.

If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it is not likely that an entire group of women would forget about that, well at least based upon what Luke says. If we go by what John says, the women did not know that Jesus said that he would rise from the dead.

Here's what I came up a few years ago for the Easter Challenge. I think it may answer some of the questions you've just posed to me:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Ok, here is what I have for the Easter challenge. I went over the texts that Barker mentioned in the beginning of his challenge (Mt 28, Mk 16, Lk 24, Jn 20-21, Acts 1:3-12, and I Cor 15:3-8)

Very early on the day after the Sabbath day a group of women which included Mary Magdalene, Mary, Salome, and Joanna traveled to the tomb with spices in order to finish anointing the body of Christ. At some point on their way there the stone is rolled away. Barker tries to say that the Matthew account says the stone was rolled away in the presence of the ladies but the text makes no mention of the actual time of the earthquake. It just says the earthquake happened and that the angel who had sat on the stone at some point spoke with the women(Mt 28:1-2, Mk 16:1-4, Lk 24:1-3, Jn 20:1). The women enter the tomb and find that the body of Jesus is missing. It is at this point that the angelic conversation takes place. It appears that there were two angels present and only one did the talking which would account for some of the accounts only mentioning one angel. (Mt 28:5-7, Mk 16:5-7, Lk 24:4-8).

Part of the angelic conversation mentioned seeing Jesus in Galilee. There is no mention that this would be Jesus’ first appearance to the disciples. Jesus just said that He would meet them there.

The group of ladies leave to tell the disciples what they have seen and heard. Mary M. gets ahead of the other ladies and is met by Jesus who says not to touch Him yet because He had not yet presented Himself to His Father (Mk 16:9, Jn 20:11-18). The other ladies hang back and at a different time Jesus appears to and allows them to touch Him, indicating that He had presented Himself to the Father between His appearance to Mary M. and the rest of the group (Mt 28:9).

Mary M. arrives and tells disciples of Jesus’ resurrection (Mk 16:10, Jn 20:2) it also appears that a bit later the rest of the ladies show up and tell the disciples as well (Lk 24:9-10). Peter and John take off for the tomb. John gets there first followed closely by Peter. Peter wanders off wondering about what happened (Lk 24:12, Jn 20:3-10).

During this time two of the disciples are traveling to Emmaus and are met by Jesus who travels and talks with them. Late in the afternoon the two disciples realize who they are talking to and go back to Jerusalem and tell the disciples. Jesus appears to this group and shows them His wounds (Mk 16:14, Lk 26:36-45, Jn 20:19-23). Eight days later He appears when Thomas is with the group and proves Himself to Thomas (Jn 20:24-29). Here the objection is usually raised that there is a discrepancy because at one meeting Thomas is not with the disciples even though the text says that Jesus appeared to the Eleven. The Eleven was used as a title for a group much like Senate or Congress. You can appear before the Senate but that doesn’t necessarily mean every member is present.

Some time later the disciples go to Galilee and Jesus appears to them there (Mt 28:16-17, Jn 21:1-22). Some time after that the Great Commission is given (Mt 28:18-20, Mk 16:15-18, Lk 24:46-48) and Jesus ascends and the disciples start to preach (Mk 16:19-20, Lk 24:49-53, Jn 21:23-25). *Note that the preaching of the disciples probably takes place after the receiving of the Holy Ghost in Acts 1

Johnny Skeptic · 03-07-2008, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to ksen: John says "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." Luke says "He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words,......." If the women knew not the scripture, how could they have remembered his words?

How could Mary have thought that the body had been moved if she had remembered Jesus' words when an angel reminded her that he had said that he would rise from the dead?

When Jesus appeared to Mary at the tomb, is it your position that it was he first told her that he had risen from the dead, or an angel? Matthew, Mark, and Luke say that it was an angel. John indicates that it was Jesus.

If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it is reasonable to assume that his followers would have believed that he would rise from the dead too, especially since they would have believed that it was God's power that actually raised Lazarus from the dead, not Jesus' power.

If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it is not likely that an entire group of women would forget about that, well at least based upon what Luke says. If we go by what John says, the women did not know that Jesus said that he would rise from the dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Here's what I came up a few years ago for the Easter Challenge. I went over the texts that Barker mentioned in the beginning of his challenge (Mt 28, Mk 16, Lk 24, Jn 20-21, Acts 1:3-12, and I Cor 15:3-8)

"Very early on the day after the Sabbath day a group of women which included Mary Magdalene, Mary, Salome, and Joanna traveled to the tomb with spices in order to finish anointing the body of Christ. The women enter the tomb and find that the body of Jesus is missing. It is at this point that the angelic conversation takes place. The group of ladies leave to tell the disciples what they have seen and heard. Mary M. gets ahead of the other ladies and is met by Jesus who says not to touch Him yet because He had not yet presented Himself to His Father (Mk 16:9, Jn 20:11-18). The other ladies hang back and at a different time Jesus appears to and allows them to touch Him, indicating that He had presented Himself to the Father between His appearance to Mary M. and the rest of the group (Mt 28:9). Mary M. arrives and tells disciples of Jesus’ resurrection (Mk
16:10, Jn 20:2) it also appears that a bit later the rest of the ladies show up and tell the disciples as well (Lk 24:9-10)."

Since a lot of what you said did not have anything to do with what I said, I only used the parts of your reply that pertain to the issues that mentioned. I will number your assertions for easy reference.

1 - Very early on the day after the Sabbath day a group of women which included Mary Magdalene, Mary, Salome, and Joanna traveled to the tomb with spices in order to finish anointing the body of Christ.

Ok.

2 - The women enter the tomb and find that the body of Jesus is missing. It is at this point that the angelic conversation takes place. The group of ladies leave to tell the disciples what they have seen and heard.

Ok.

3 - Mary M. gets ahead of the other ladies and is met by Jesus who says not to touch Him yet because He had not yet presented Himself to His Father (Mk 16:9, Jn 20:11-18).

That is not ok unless you can reasonably explain why Luke says "He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words," but John says that Mary thought that the body had been moved. If Mary remembered Jesus' claim that he would rise from the dead, she most certainly would not have thought that body have been moved, especially since she saw it put there.

If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it is not likely than an entire group of women would have forgotten that Jesus said that he would rise from the dead too. Jesus' followers would probably have believed that it was God's power that raised Lazarus from the dead, not Jesus' power, and that God would raise Jesus from the dead too. The texts show that Jesus attributed his powers to God on a number of occasions, not to himself.

One must ask "was it God's intention to try to convince as many people as possible that Jesus rose from the dead?" I just remembered that since you are a Calvinist, you will say that God only reveals himself to people who he wants to reveal himself to. I successfully refuted that claim in my thread at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=235279 at the GRD Forum that is titled 'If a God exists, he is probably not the God fo the Bible.'

Johnny Skeptic · 03-07-2008, 07:50 PM

John says "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." Luke says "He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words,......." If the women knew not the scripture, how could they have remembered Jesus' words?

How could Mary have thought that the body had been moved if she had remembered Jesus' words?

Matthew, Mark, and Luke say that an angel told Mary that Jesus had riwen from the dead. In John chapter 20, who told Mary that Jesus had risen from the dead, an angel, or Jesus?

Johnny Skeptic · 03-11-2008, 10:08 AM

Message to Jane H:

Consider the following Scriptures:

Luke 24:8

"And they remembered his words."

John 20:9

"For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead."

That is a contradiction. In addition, if Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, and told his followers that he would rise from the dead, there are not any doubts whatsoever that the women at the tomb would not have forgotten about that, and that Jesus' followers would have expected him to rise from the dead. If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, his followers would have believed that it was God who actually raised Lazarus from the dead, not Jesus, and that God would raise Jesus from the dead too. Jesus attributed all of his miracles to God, not to himself.

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03-07-2008, 07:06 AM	#63
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Johnny, in a book where the sun was created when light already was the answer to your riddles may need to be found in this prior light. So are you here as entertainer or just waisting our time, or what?

03-07-2008, 10:38 AM	#64
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to ksen: John says "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." Luke says "He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words,......." If the women knew not the scripture, how could they have remembered his words? How could Mary have thought that the body had been moved if she had remembered Jesus' words when an angel reminded her that he had said that he would rise from the dead? When Jesus appeared to Mary at the tomb, is it your position that it was he first told her that he had risen from the dead, or an angel? Matthew, Mark, and Luke say that it was an angel. John indicates that it was Jesus. If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it is reasonable to assume that his followers would have believed that he would rise from the dead too, especially since they would have believed that it was God's power that actually raised Lazarus from the dead, not Jesus' power. If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, it is not likely that an entire group of women would forget about that, well at least based upon what Luke says. If we go by what John says, the women did not know that Jesus said that he would rise from the dead.

03-07-2008, 07:50 PM	#67
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	John says "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." Luke says "He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words,......." If the women knew not the scripture, how could they have remembered Jesus' words? How could Mary have thought that the body had been moved if she had remembered Jesus' words? Matthew, Mark, and Luke say that an angel told Mary that Jesus had riwen from the dead. In John chapter 20, who told Mary that Jesus had risen from the dead, an angel, or Jesus?

03-11-2008, 10:08 AM	#68
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to Jane H: Consider the following Scriptures: Luke 24:8 "And they remembered his words." John 20:9 "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." That is a contradiction. In addition, if Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, and told his followers that he would rise from the dead, there are not any doubts whatsoever that the women at the tomb would not have forgotten about that, and that Jesus' followers would have expected him to rise from the dead. If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, his followers would have believed that it was God who actually raised Lazarus from the dead, not Jesus, and that God would raise Jesus from the dead too. Jesus attributed all of his miracles to God, not to himself.

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