Magus55

God, Jesus same thing The point is, she said God is her savior. Only sinners need saviors.



Catholics also believe Mary can save souls, and is the Queen of Heaven. Jesus is an exception because He is God. Mary was a normal, mortal human who was given the gift of bringing the Savior into the world. She is not a Queen, she is not divine, and has no redemptive power. Catholics have exalted Mary to a status she shouldn't be.

Magus55

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Evoken

Wrong again.

Was she not sinless BECAUSE of Jesus/God?

Ergo, Jesus is still her savior, it is just the manner in which she was saved that varied.


Valz

Mageth

I added something to my post, namely that the Catholic could reply that God saved Mary by freeing her from the curse of original sin through the miraculous immaculate conception.

One miracle is as good as another, in my book.

Of course, Catholics would disagree with you on that. And that's the point; different strokes for different folks. And one fairytale is as good as another, from where I stand.

A problem you have is that, once you make one human is divine (Jesus), then it's entirely possible that two humans (Jesus and Mary) could be divine, or could be granted divine status of one sort or another. Arguments one way or the other at that point are simply doctrinal arguments; there's no way other than by appealing to your particular beliefs on the matter to determine which is right or which is wrong.

Evoken

It would do well if you try and learn a bit about Catholicism instead of relying on the Protestants who are always crying foul against it. The Church does not teaches that Mary can save souls. Mary is at best mediatrix of all graces, in that we can ask her to pray for us (not pray to her).


Valz

Wallener

Mary is supposedly in heaven. How can you "ask" her without the asking being a prayer itself?

Evoken

The same manner in which one asks for prayers from other people.

Valz

Magus55

How does Mary hear prayers? She isn't omniscient.

Magus55

From the Catechism:


966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507

Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

Mary is not the Queen of all things, and her prayers do not deliver our souls from death.

And funny how the Bible says Jesus is the only mediator between God and humans. The Catholic Church added Mary.

Mageth

Why would Mary need to be omniscient to hear prayers? I can hear people pray, and I'm not omniscient...