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One tiny problem: God is the one who decided to curse Adam and Eve with this disease-like "sin". It seems to me he has no right to be discontent with the curse of "sin" that he himself inflicted. Supposedly, God in the one who created us as we are. If we are imperfect and God is unable to tolerate that imperfection, then it's his own fault.
That might be impressive except for the fact that regardless of the relative greviousness of any particular sin, all sins recieve the exact smae punishment. A murderer and someone who works on the Sabbath both suffer the same eternity.
I would say that it is religion that blinds man, and gives believers excuses to do worse things than they would normally do.

Jobar

I'm curious- while I understand that Tim thinks we're all 'totally' depraved, simply because we're human, does he think there has ever lived a human who was 'utterly' depraved? IOW, are there any examples of utter depravity?

I wonder if he considers Lucifer utterly depraved.

(Which reminds me of an old question- did Lucifer, and angels in general, have free will? But that'd be a derail of BBB's topic, so I may ask it elsewhere.)

(By the way, it's 'versus'.)

BadBadBad

More importantly, who would be the judge between utter and total depravity? God has revealed his judgement.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit

Fuck the Holy Spirit.

God says that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an unforgiveable sin against God. Now, if telling the Holy Spirit to fuck off isn't sufficient to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, I'd like to know what is. Since I don't agree there is any such thing as God's Common Grace, it doesn't limit me. I have no restraints keeping me from sinning against this imaginary God concept .... utterly. I'd like to go all the way. If someone would only be so kind as to tell me what what is required to sin against God ... utterly.

Jedi Mind Trick

From an undisciplined mind that is acting out of selfish animal urges; unconcerned with the cohesiveness of the social structures around him.

Jobar

I think that the believers may consider our unbelief just such a sin, BBB.

Although it may be that they consider belief in other gods worse. Hmm, we'll have to ask Tim about that one. Rev, which sin is greater in your eyes? Disbelief, or "false" belief?

added- And which sin would you say is worse in the eyes of God? (Who, of course, I don't think exists at all.)

BadBadBad

Tim,

Do you believe I am utterly depraved? If not, what do I have to do to become utterly depraved? I hope that doesn't mean I have to rape and murder children or go on a genocidal killing spree. I don't have anything against other people, just this God concept you speak of. I would like to commit utter sin against God to demonstrate to you that I have no limitation of this so called Common Grace. Just be so kind as to tell me what is required to utterly sin against God. Also if it's not atheism and blaspheme of the holy spirit, what basis do you have for concluding that?

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

In the area of faith (in this case -verbal public profession), you are committing the ultimate definance and rejection, but that does NOT mean that (1) in other areas (and in ALL areas) you are doing all that you could possibly do to defy the authority of God and to live out consistently what that profession would ultimately lead you to. So, in this sense, though your depravity is seen in that it reaches even your religious commitments (including your mind, heart, and will), i.e., it is total, your depravity does not display it's "utter" potential.

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

You argument fails for you have not understood the Scripture. Go back and read Genesis 3 and see if God cursed Adam and Eve with Sin, or whether a curse was put upon man as a result of sin. (I hate it when people argue against a gospel they don't even understand.)

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

What's evident by your attitude, your language, and your writing, is that since you do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, you are already being given over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. (Rom 1:28). On one level, you don't have to wait for eternity, the evidences of death and darkness are already being displayed though your testimony. If you would repent and turn from such thinking, God would give you life, and this life would become evident in your speech and desires as well.

BadBadBad

Um, I'm still at a loss Tim. You're avoiding a number of issues I've brought up in this thread. Let's review:

1. Why do we have a conscience that limits us from utter depravity but not total depravity?

2. Why do Christians define utter depravity based upon crimes against mankind, when the Bible says blaspheme of the holy spirit is the one unforgiveable sin?

3. What is the difference to god between morally bad and very morally bad?

4. If we are depraved throughout our entire being and soul, how much more depraved could we possibly be?

5. If God limits our wickedness through his common grace, why doesn't he limit us just a tad more? You know perhaps just enough to keep the Catholic priest from raping little boys? Perhaps just enough to keep one rapist from kidnapping, raping, murdering, and burying one child in a backyard like a dog?

6. You believe that I reject God. I'm giving you that for the sake of argument. Now, why would I only want to do that half-assed? Why would I want to honor God by complying with his moral law? Why should I allow God's common grace, what ever that is, to limit my deliberate rebellion of God? No, that doesn't make sense to me. If I'm going to rebel against God, I want to to all the way. What is required to utterly rebel against God?