Bubba

I have a person at my wife's church that keeps trying to convince me that Christianity is a rational choice no matter what evidence is posted against it because

A. John 3:16 Cannot be disproven

and

B. The rewards if it is true are infinite and thus...

C. Christianity is worth my devotion.

This is so absurd that I am not sure how to respond. I keep trying to convince him that Heaven is not of infinite value because the evidences against life after death are overwhelming, but he just comes back with this infinite value/Pascals wager thing.

This guy even admits that there is zero evidence that heaven and hell exist.

Thoughts?

Chris

GenesisNemesis

Anything that cannot be disproven is not worth any devotion.

Bubba

Interesting thought.

Chris

Jayco

If you have to perform a leap of faith to believe something, what does that tell you about that something?

Vicious Love

Only that Yahweh is sure to throw him in Hell for worshiping a false messiah.

LuisGarcia

You're being hit with a double whammy of nonsense, so it's no wonder it can feel disconcerting.

So here we go.

John 3:16 cannot be disproven.

And?

Ask the person if there is anything, and I mean anything that he thinks is not true.

Anything at all.

Now ask him to prove it is not true.

For those such as I who had to look it up, the verse in question is "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

There are many, many ways to approach this.

1. Those words you theists keep saying, "proof" and "disprove". They do not mean what I think you think they mean.

2. Why is murderously sacrificing your son (who is also yourself) to alleviate a situation you brought about in order to impress yourself a good thing?

3. Why is "eternal life" given to those who believe? What's the value in believing something? How does "I think this thing might be true despite a complete lack of evidence and copious evidence that it is not" improve the world? What qualifies this particular thought process as being so worthy that those with it get eternal happiness and those without don't?

Now, to the Pascals wager.

Apart from the fact that your interlocutor almost certainly knows nothing about bringing infinite numbers into risk reward calculations, and apart from the fact that any god(s) worthy of the name would see through such selfish, nasty attempts at deception, your friend has the problem of the false dichotomy.

After all, Allah really, really hates those christian idol worshippers. They're the ones who are going to hell.

Goathead

Except this is more a suspension of critical thought than a leap of faith.

If i was told my father was a wild teen, it would be a leap of faith (hes pretty mild).

If i was told my father had reserved a place in heaven for ever and ever just for me, that is a suspension of critical thought.

David B

Fire this verse from the Koran back at him

Tell him that by his own logic he must convert to islam

David B (does not like to capitalise islam or god)

Cheerful Charlie

For guys like this:

Christianity says that if we do not believe Jesus was son of God, we will burn in hell. Islam tell us that if we claim God had a son, it is a blasphemous insult to Allah and we will burn in hell.

And there are other religions that make similar claims. Now, how do we make sure we make the right choice to avoid eternel damnation?

Mark 11 and John 14 tell us Christian can work great miracles.Throw mountains into the sea as per Mark 11. Or do bigger rmiracles than Jesusas per John 14:12-14. We see no miracles. Christianity then must be false and thus Islam right. Correct?

CC

Rhaedas

Aside from Pascal's wager being a false dichotomy...

Taken by itself, John 3:16 sounds like some type of sacrifice to believers. It seems many verses are this way...they make great soundbites.

Taken into context with the rest of the book though, it doesn't work. It conflicts with other parts. It implies belief is the key, yet elsewhere it's taught that works are more important than belief. This same god loved the world so much he gives his son (for a whole 2 1/2 days) but took out the whole world in a massive flood, guilty and innocent.

And eternal life...worshipping? Whee...even if a natural eternal life was possible where I could do as I like, and wasn't some mindless zombie chanting prayers, I'd want some kind of op-out if it got too much.