Toto

Please tone down the insults.

Steven Avery

The "leading vav" ? As if it 'leads' after the 'verse number' ?? How does a "verse number" lead ANYTHING in a translation ?
The whole exercise is silly. One was already given, and then you fell back on VERSE NUMBERS !!! And you expect to be taken seriously ?

More baldersash. They could have put an "and" in the beginning of 13:2 if that was their goal. I already pointed that out to you. You apparently (screen out) answers to your assertions so you can repeat them again and again.

LOL.. you making NO sense at all, making the most absurd arguments about a vav translation to support your weak case, and you call me 'dim' ?????

Very good. And anybody except you would understand that you don't talk about translation "rules" based on verse numbers! It is simply the most absurd junque you have come up with.

They were excellent and accurate translators. Apparently you mean here that most "vavs" were translated 'in place', nothing exceptional about that, except when they weren't, like in 1 Samuel 12:9 and 1 Samuel 13:1. Some "rule" to try to fabricate. You should have quit while you were behind.

Many verses are "exceptional". They can be idiomatic, they can have some unusual grammar, they can call out for a less literal translational. Exceptional verses are ... rather normal.

<edit>Transparent.

Api, you would have done better to simply leave it at "formula" and gone on from there. At least you were understandable, and in the ballpark of a real argument, despite the many weaknesses.

For your goof, I could have given virtually every single quote you have given on the "vav" issue from the very beginning. None made any sense. None.

I'm glad that you agree that ben-shanah can fit for one year, or yearling. Although we have no examples within the other verses to test how they would state that phrase for a reign beginning at one year.

However, your case is NOT that that was the original text at all. You contend that some number was in there that was missing ? Remember ? YOU are the one claiming the text is faulty, that it needs a number to become your "formula", that the real year is "missing". You should decide what side of the argument you are on.

I can't think of anybody other than you who would make such a stupid suggestion to check a "rule" based on verse numbers. (The fallback position when the first attempt failed by 1 Samuel 12:9).

You fabricate the garbage suposed "rule" based on verse numbers (!), then you spend the worthless garbage time to demonstrate, or not, the worthless rule. Then whatever the results you throw them in the garbage because you are wasted real time on nothing. GIGO.

And don't ask me to take out your garbage.
A simple answer, Api.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Apikorus

Methinks you are becoming unhinged under the withering heat of all the evidence. At any rate, your bluster is a transparent if tacit admission of failure.

Apikorus

(sigh) od paam ve od paam -- im hayu samim et hamo'ach shelkha b'tarnegol, hu haya ratz yashar l'shokhet.

Once more with feeling: The versification of the Hebrew Bible is medieval. It is to some extent arbitrary. However, the KJV generally treats each verse as a separate unit. The fact that this is not the case with 1 Sam 13:2 means that this verse is conspicuously different. It stands out. Why is it treated differently? The KJV translators were meticulous in their work, so this is unlikely to be an accident. My contention is that the corruption of the Hebrew in 1 Sam 13:1 forced the KJV translators to append 13:2 onto 13:1, which precluded their translating the vav in vayivchar so as to start 13:2 as a new sentence. It doesn't take very much sleuthing to uncover this, provided one can read the Hebrew, is familiar with the standard Deuteronomistic regnal formulae, and has some familiarity with the KJV's approach to translation. There are probably about 650 verses in 1 Samuel, over 80% of which begin with a vav. So far as I can tell, each and every vav at the beginning of a verse is translated by the KJV, with the sole exception of 1 Sam 13:2. When something happens hundreds of times without fail, and there is a single exception, that sort of thing generally arouses curiosity. So what my observation proves (and I think the proof is well-nigh undeniable) is that the KJV translators recognized that there was a problem with 1 Sam 13:1.

BenefitOfTheDoubt

I can straight through the Old Testament from beginning to end and show that what the KJV did in 1 Sam 13:1-2 it does all the way through with the VAV -- Below shows how the KJV treats the VAV vs how a 'literal' treatment of the VAV would look in these verses:

GEN 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food..., she took of the fruit (KJV)
And the woman saw that the tree was good for food..., and she took of the fruit (LITERAL)

GEN 14:14
And when Abram heard..., he armed (KJV)
And Abram heard..., and he armed (LITERAL)

GEN 15:11
And when the fowls..., Abram (KJV)
And the fowls..., and Abram (LITERAL)

GEN 15:12
And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep (KJV)
And the sun was going down, and a deep sleep (LITERAL)

GEN 16:4
and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress (KJV)
and she saw that she had conceived, and her mistress (LITERAL)

GEN 16:6
And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face. (KJV)
And Sarai dealt hardly with her, and she fled from her face. (LITERAL)

GEN 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram (KJV)
And Abram was ninety years old and nine, and the LORD appeared to Abram (LITERAL)

GEN 18:2
and when he saw them, he ran to meet them (KJV)
and he saw them, and he ran to meet them (LITERAL)

GEN 24:19
And when she had done giving him drink, she said, (KJ)
And she had done (i.e. finished) giving him drink, and she said, (LIT)

GEN 24:64
And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. (KJ)
And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and she saw Isaac, and she lighted off the camel. (LIT)

GEN 25:24
And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. (KJ)
And her days to be delivered were fulfilled, and behold, there were twins in her womb. (LIT)

GEN 29:31
And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: (KJ)
And the LORD saw that Leah was hated, and he opened her womb: (LIT)

GEN 30:1
And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister (KJ)
And Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, and Rachel envied her sister (LIT)

GEN 32:2
And when Jacob saw them, he said (KJ)
And Jacob saw them, and he said (LIT)

GEN 32:25
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh (KJ)
And he saw that he prevailed not against him, and he touched the hollow of his thigh (LIT)

GEN 34:2
And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite...saw her, he took her (KJ)
And Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite...saw her, and he took her (LIT)

GEN 37:4
And when his brethren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, they hated him (KJ)
And his brethren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, and they hated him (LIT)

........

SHALL I CONTINUE and just go straight through the Old Testament and show where the KJV translates "vav this...vav that" as "when this, that" -- I can do it. It is NOT uncommon as Apikorus claims.

Apikorus

None of Ben's examples is anything like 1 Sam 13:2. In 1 Sam 13:2, the KJV fails to translate the vav at the beginning of the verse.

Apikorus

You are proving my point, Ben! Each and every one of the verses you quoted begins with "And..." to translate the opening vav. So by all means, continue as long as you please!

If you should ever find a case where the vav at the beginning of a verse is not translated, I'd be interested. I am pretty sure this happens just once in all of 1 Samuel, but I can't vouch for the entire Hebrew Bible.

I expect praxeus is at this very moment poring over the KJV, trying to find an exception to this rule. Perhaps we'll hear more from him tomorrow.

BenefitOfTheDoubt

And each and every one of them has a "vav this...vav that" construction that means "when this, that"

Besides, if the KJV was faking the "when this, that" construction in 1 Samuel 13:1-2 in order to cover up the literal sense of the verse, then why in the world does Matthew's Bible also translate the "vav this...vav that" construction as "when this, that" although it does give the literal sense of the verse?

"Saul was as a child of a year old, when he began to reign. And when he had reigned two years over Israel, he chose him three thousand men out of Israel." (Matthew's Bible)

He gives the literal sense and he still translates "vav this...vav that" to "when this, that" -- is he doing it to mask the literal sense? Obviously not. You're just being ridiculous.

Apikorus

Ben, you are apparently oblivious to the fact that 1 Sam 13:2 in the KJV is the sole exception to a rule which applies to about 400 other verses in 1 Samuel. Namely, the vav at the beginning of a verse is always translated, whether as a conjunction, disjunction, adjunction, whatever.

I'm quite aware of the fact that a vav in the middle of a verse is sometimes translated and sometimes left untranslated in the KJV. This is beside the point. Perhaps some day, in the distant future when the stars themselves begin to dim, you will apprehend all this.

BenefitOfTheDoubt

I found a few parallel examples where the KJV omits a vav at the beginning of a 2-verse sentence with a "when" in the first verse:

Gen 6:1-2 "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, {2} (vav omitted) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

Gen 39:13-14 "And it came to pass, when she saw that he had left his garment in her hand, and was fled forth, {14} (vav omitted) That she called unto the men of her house, and spake unto them, saying, See, he hath brought in an Hebrew unto us to mock us; he came in unto me to lie with me, and I cried with a loud voice:"

Exo 6:28-29 "And it came to pass on the day when the LORD spake unto Moses in the land of Egypt, {29} (vav omitted) That the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, I am the LORD: speak thou unto Pharaoh king of Egypt all that I say unto thee."

Exo 13:11-12 "And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, as he sware unto thee and to thy fathers, and shall give it thee, {12} (vav omitted) That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the LORD'S."

1 Chronicles 10:11-12 "And when all Jabeshgilead heard all that the Philistines had done to Saul, {12} (vav omitted) They arose, all the valiant men, and took away the body of Saul, and the bodies of his sons, and brought them to Jabesh, and buried their bones under the oak in Jabesh, and fasted seven days."

(I'm sure there are many more, but I'm not going to stay up all night looking for them.)

Which brings us back to:

1 Sam 13:1-2 "Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel, {2} (vav omitted) Saul chose him three thousand men of Israel; whereof two thousand were with Saul in Michmash and in mount Bethel, and a thousand were with Jonathan in Gibeah of Benjamin: and the rest of the people he sent every man to his tent."

(And for those who can't read Hebrew to check for themselves if there is really a vav there, see if you can find the Geneva Bible of 1587 (hint, google eSword) and you'll see that in many of these verse the Geneva Bible says "Then" were I am indicating the KJV omitted a vav.)