bacht

Dating the gospels is still a work in progress. The typical range is from 70 ce to 180. It's not impossible that no written gospel existed when Revelation was penned (usually dated to the mid-90s)

Josephus tells us there were several messianic pretenders in the 1st C. The best known was Simon bar Kochba in 132-35. After this neither Jews nor Christians had much appetite for apocalyptic fireworks.

Even with the support of Josephus, there isn't much to go on for John. He isn't mentioned in the canonical epistles. In the gospels he seems to be cast as Elijah returned, proclaiming the coming of the Day of the Lord. When or how he actually lived may never be known.

PhilosopherJay

Hi Sassafras,

The gospel writers used the same material of John predicting the "Son of Man." They just changed the name of the character from John to Jesus.
I assume a close relationship between the gospel writers and the writer of the Book of Revelations. Which came first is immaterial. John predicts the coming of the "Son of Man" in the Book of Revelation"

The character of Theseus was based on Heracles. They both met in Hades where Heracles freed Theseus.

"Dorian Grey" was based on "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde." The characters met in "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen."

Many 1950's D.C. comic book heroes like "The Flash" "Wonder Woman" and "Green Lantern" were based on 1940's comic book heroes with the same names and slightly different costumes. In the 1960's these characters met with the explanation that they were from dual worlds (Earth I and Earth II)

Coy and Vance Duke were based on Bo and Luke Duke. They met in an episode of the Dukes of Hazard Season Five. (I'm embarrassed to know this)

"The Hulk" was based on "the Thing." They met in Fantastic Four number 12.

Roger Rabbit was based on Bugs Bunny. They met

Robert Zimmerman based his Bob Dylan character and music on Woody Guthrie. They met.

The Rolling Stones were based on the Beatles. They met

Tina Fey's impersonation of Sarah Palin was based on Sara Palin. They met.


Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

aa5874

How can John the Baptist be a sequel when he quotes one or two verses from Isaiah or Hebrew Scripture and then he is dead?

And AFTER John Baptizes Jesus, a CLOUD replaces John. Jesus did not even attend John's funeral.

PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

My apologies to all Star Trek fans, I should have mentioned the meeting of Captain Christopher Pike with Captain James T. Kirk that place in "the Menagerie"

Pike was the captain of the Starship Enterprise in the pilot episode for Star Trek called "the Cage." He was played by Jeffrey Hunter. The pilot didn't sell and another pilot was shot. Hunter became unavailable, so another pilot was shot with a new actor in the role, William Shatner and the name of the Captain simply changed to Kirk.

The pilot episode "the Cage" was cleverly integrated into the two-part episode of "The Menagerie." I suspect that the material from the Gospel of John the Baptist was cleverly integrated into the Gospel of Jesus the Son of Man in the same way when the John material failed to arouse the people to repent any longer.

We can say that the Jesus character is simply a reboot of the John character in the way that Kirk is a reboot of Pike.

Perhaps the greatest irony here is that the actor Jeffrey Hunter, who played the character of Captain Pike, also played the character of Jesus Christ in the classic Hollywood movie, "The King of Kings."

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Please remember that we know a lot about the parallel lives of John and Jesus. John recognized Jesus in the womb and kicked his mother to prove it. John was born about six months before Jesus and died about six months before Jesus. John was a baptizing apocalyptic Jewish Prophet preaching the Immanent coming of the Kingdom of God, Jesus was a baptizing apocalyptic Jewish Prophet preaching the immanent coming of the Kingdom of God.

John comes from the desert before baptizing Jesus, Jesus goes to the desert after being baptized. Both men are suddenly arrested after becoming popular and executed for their political/religious wok. They are so identical that people think Jesus is John come back to life.

Even when defining Jesus, he is defined in terms of John. Jesus drinks, hangs out with whores, parties with rich men and doesn't fast; John doesn't drink, hang out with whores, or party with rich men, but does fast. In story development, to distinguish two characters playing similar plot roles, authors apply binary opposite characteristics to their twin creations -- if one character is old, the other is young, if one character is smart, the other other is dumb, if one character is neat, the other is sloppy, if one character is serious, the other likes to joke around. This is the most economical way for authors to distinguish the two characters in the minds of the audience.

The reason that the lives of John and Jesus are so intertwined appears clear if we assume that the Jesus character plays the same role as John (hero, apocalyptic prophet) in a reboot of the John narrative. No other explanation that I know of can so simply explain the numerous coincidences in character and plot line.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

TedM

I think this is more likely:

John was an apocalyptic preacher of the first century who didn't think Jesus was the Messiah. However, Jesus was so impressed by John that after he was baptised by him Jesus carried forward with the same ideas. In time Jesus came to believe that maybe he (Jesus) was that son of man. Neither John, nor his followers, were particularly convinced, but others were.

bacht

There are several dynamic duos in the OT:

Moses and Aaron

Moses and Joshua

David and Nathan

Elijah and Elishah

Isaiah and Hezekiah

Jeshua and Zerubbabel

Haggai and Zechariah

Ezra and Nehemiah

There seems to be literary precedent for the John/Jesus stories, regardless of whether either was a real person.

Juststeve

TedM:

I think you scenario could well be the case as well. It seems clear from the synoptic accounts that at one time Jesus was a follower of John. Therefore it could have been just as you suggest.

Steve