razlyubleno

Ben adam, son of Adam, son of man. These all mean the same thing. Jesus is not necessarily referring to himself here, but easily could just mean mankind.

He portrays him as the adopted son of God, and perhaps he intended to portray Jesus as able to forgive sins because of this adoption. But the evidence is inconclusive. He may only have been acting as intermediary between the sinner and God, just as priests were able to speak to God on behalf of sinners.

razly

kcdad

Predestined? Come on... keep your nonsense Calvinism to yourself. Real Christians don't believe that. There can be no sin if there is predestination.

HUH? Esau failed to do what? Be born first?

Come on... you don't even know what that means... let alone obey it.

What is God's name and how can it be taken in vain?

kcdad

And Jesus told the the disciples they would do greater things than he and they could forgive sins and heal too.
SO?

aa5874

You know that Jesus in gMark refers to himself as the Son of man.

Mark 8:31 - Mark 2.5-10 There is no intermediary, it is clear that Jesus, the Son of man had the power to forgive sins based on the author of Mark. The information is clear and conclusive.

razlyubleno

You miss my point. We are all Son of Man. Jesus ben adam. Razlyubleno ben adam. Aa5874 ben adam. Jesus was speaking on behalf of mankind, as a member of mankind, as a son of Adam.

It's clear to you, maybe. I don't think it's so clean cut.

razly

aa5874

Jesus in Mark 2 was not speaking on behalf of mankind. Jesus called himself the Son of man and based on the author of Mark, Jesus was speaking about himself.

Mark 14.61-62 It is clear Jesus, in Mark, is referring to himself as the Son of man.

storytime

Israel is recognized as the only people. The story has the world as subjects, as "food", producers, because Israel was to be the heirs - sons of God. Scribes wrote the story in their own interest, not that other non Israelites should be equal to them, but as subjects of their kingdom, their God. So, iow, when reading the bible story, know your place.

storytime

From the book of Malachi we read that the priest(s) were the mouth of God, and their judgment was a finalization of the matter(s) brought before them. (Malachi is also speaking to the situation of the divided kingdoms of Judah and Israel)

As Jesus hotly debated the Pharisee and Sadducee priests, the story indicates that he was a priest himself and with authority higher than the Pharisees and Sadducees. NT apostles call Jesus the High Priest even above the angels. How did they come to this conclusion? Were they maybe grasping for anyone with knowledge of their past history and Jesus fit the bill? Was their situation so unbearable that they saw Jesus as a savior? Whatever. They invested authority in their Lord as Christ(Messiah), and left the Pharisees and Sadducees to themselves. Jesus was their new Lord and Master teacher and they followed him. And they believed their High Priest Jesus had authority to forgive sins. If their social community at Jerusalem was in such unbearable a condition and they literally feared the Pharisees might have them executed for almost any offense, and Jesus offered a way out of the death penalty, then his appearance as a savior would have been eagerly welcomed.

There is on one occassion though, that Jesus referred a few people to the sitting priest at Jerusalem and told them to offer doves and pigeons for their offense[sin]. This situation may indicate that Jesus words of "my day is not yet come" had its relivance to that power not fully vested in him as yet. It was still to come, and they would have to fight for it.

aa5874

So, just show me the passage where Jesus told the disciples that they had the power to forgive the sins of the Jews.

Next, show a passage where Peter, or any so-called disciples told any-one that they had the power to forgive sin.

These are the words of Peter as found in Acts 2.21 No disciple of Jesus in the NT was called upon to save the Jews.

storytime

Calvin and all other theologians impose themselves into the story, and distance themselves from the required elements of sonship[children of the Hebrew God]. Today Christians refuse to admit to the required protocol "as it is written". Jews rejected the uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles as it was their commands of law that required them to do so. Predistination according to Calvin is a false ideology. Predistination as perscribed to heirs is biblical inheritance record and belongs to only one group of people of whom the story is all about - the Jews, "Israel".

Esau failed to honor his father and his mother and intermarried with peoples of the land. Esau is identified as Edomites, who were NOT "a people" of the Hebrew God. Esau married outside his boundary with many wives not of Isaac's kinsmen. That left one son Jacob as rightful heir who obeyed his parents and married within their customary people thus not breaking the "kindred" affiliation, so to speak. Thus, Jacob became the "one" seed of Isaac to which "the promise" flowed as inheritance. And there it remained. Jacob's name was changed to Israel, "for he had power with God".

The commandment was for Israel - "thou shalt not take the name of thy Lord God in vain, for whosoever takes His name in vain will not be held guiltless". What does this mean? Israelites and converts were commanded to be loyal to their own nation of people. Stepping outside that loyalty in either unauthorized alliance with other people or another offense[sin] constituted disloyalty. The death penalty was the remedy for "unruly children of Israel". If they didn't want the Lord to rule over them, they had taken his name in vain as Israelites, his namesake. They were in essence judged as traitors.

I need not obey those commandments as they have no application to me, a non Israeli/Jew. You can claim yourself "sinner" if you want, as you've probably been erroneously taught and accepted that offensiveness on yourself. I prefer to be free from it. But why don't you look again at the story and remove yourself from it? And examine the bible as to why it would benefit you.