Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-26-2011, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Erm, that's what text critics do.... about everything.

Except that the most of the Clementine material has been noted to have survived in an especially poor condition with only one real exemplar. My point was merely to note that the Alexandrian material survives only with a disproportionate amount of textual variants. If you read Clement with an attention to detail you will see that even his gospel quotations are inconsistent leading some to conclude that later editors altered the citations. The discussions and debates about corruption in the writings of Clement seemed to be paralleled by the idea that Pantanaeus edited some writings of Origen. The same pattern of changing Origen can be seen in the differences between the Greek and Latin editions of others of his works.

Roger Pearse · 03-26-2011, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Except that the most of the Clementine material has been noted to have survived in an especially poor condition with only one real exemplar.

I confess I know little about the textual tradition of Clement's works. Would you like to say something here for us all? Can I ask who has noted this? I.e. what's the source?

I know there are Syriac and Arabic recensions of pseudo-Clementine material. I don't know that I have paid much attention otherwise. Hmm... I might look some of this up.

Quote:

My point was merely to note that the Alexandrian material survives only with a disproportionate amount of textual variants.

Interesting, but I'm a little dubious about this; can I ask what this is based on? By comparison with what, do you think?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

stephan huller · 03-26-2011, 12:05 PM

I confess that I have been posting these things while watching my son play at one of those bouncing castle emporiums so I can just cite my impression from what I have read. The majority of surviving MSS seem to go back to Arethas the student of Photius probably drawing from texts dating from Clement`s flight to Caesarea. The oldest known MS of Quis Dives Salvetur seems to have one now lost at Mar Saba interestingly enough. The condition of the Arethas material is generally considered to be of poor quality

stephan huller · 03-26-2011, 12:11 PM

Perhaps I should have written “less than ideal” quality

Roger Pearse · 03-26-2011, 12:17 PM

To include others in this, here's some general info from Quasten's "Patrology" II. The extant works of Clement are:

1. The Protrepicus or Exhortation to the Greeks.
2. The Paedagogus or Tutor
3. The Stromata or Carpets
4. The Excerpta ex Theodoto and Eclogae Propheticae, which follow the Stromata in the manuscripts.
5. Quis dives salvetur? (Who is the rich man who is saved? - a homily)

There are a number of manuscripts of the Protrepicus and Paedagogus, but they are all copies of the Arethas Codex (shelfmark ms. Paris graecus 451 = P), a 10th century manuscript containing a collection of early apologies which was prepared in 941 AD for the Byzantine scholar, Archbishop Arethas of Caesarea in Cappadocia. The manuscript is now missing 40 folios, but copies made before that loss are extant, ms. Mutin. III. D. 7 (=M), and ms. Florence Mediceo-Laurenziana V. 24 (=F), plus two others of extracts. The former is the better copy. There are 3 copies of M, 8 copies of F. M is 10-11th century; F is 12th century. There is also an indirect transmission, and scholia.

The Stromata and Excerpta and Eclogae are found in two manuscripts, ms. Florence Mediceo-Laurenziana V. 3 (=L), and in the 16th century copy of it ms. Paris suppl. gr. 250. L is 11th century, but is carelessly written (GCS, p.xli). Here's what the editor says:

Quote:

Die Handschrift ist sehr flüchtig geschrieben; Accente und Spiritus fehlen sehr häufig; manchmal ist mehrere Zeilen hindurch kein derartiges Zeichen gesetzt. Die Schreibfehler jeder Art 1 sind sehr zahlreich. J. B. Mayor hat in seiner Ausgabe von Strom. VII p. LXV—LXXX sehr ausführlich über die verschiedenen Fehlerarten gehandelt, und Dr. Kenyon ist auf Grund von Mayors Zusammenstellungen zu dem Schluß gekommen, daß der Archetypus von L eine Papyrushs mit zahlreichen Abkürzungen gewesen sein müsse, die noch dazu mehrfach beschädigt war. So viel ist jedenfalls sicher, die Überlieferung der Stromata ist sehr schlecht und der Conjecturalkritik steht hier ein weites Feld offen. Namentlich in den Dichtercitaten, den Namen und Zahlen stecken viele Fehler, und es ist oft nicht mehr möglich festzustellen, was Clemens selbst geschrieben hat. Nur eine Art von Corruptelen möchte ich nicht so häufig annehmen wie Mayor und schon vor ihm J. By water (Journ. of Philology 4 (1872) p. 204), nämlich die Umstellung von ganzen Sätzen. Mag auch hie und da ein zuerst vergessener und dann am Rand nachgetragener Satz an einer falschen Stelle in den Text geraten sein, so scheint mir doch eine häufige Wiederholung dieses Vorgangs nicht wahrscheinlich.

I.e. the tradition of the Stromata is very poor, and the critic who uses conjectural emendation has a wide field in which to work. In the quotations names and numbers are often missing, and it is often impossible to determine what Clement himself wrote. Only one form of corruption is lacking (contrary to Mayor and Bywater), which is the alteration of whole sentences.

Quis dives salvetur is found in ms. Escorial Omega-III-19 (=S, 11-12th century), and in a copy, ms. Vatican gr. 623 (=V, 16th century). There are 16 manuscripts containing excerpts.

I've augmented Quasten from the GCS edition; unhappily my copy of the PDF is missing the material on P.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

stephan huller · 03-26-2011, 12:26 PM

But my sources at Mar Saba say there was an earlier copy of QDS there before the text cited here. Will report more when I get home

Roger Pearse · 03-26-2011, 01:54 PM

Would be very interesting to know, if so -- thanks!

stephan huller · 03-26-2011, 02:11 PM

I had started a thread a week or so ago where I basically reformatted the contents of an email I had received from someone close to the monastery. I have been waiting for a confirmation from Agamemnon Tselikas but getting a hold of him is like asking for an audience with the Pope. Here is the post from a few days ago, with the material from the original email now emboldened:

Quote:

The manuscripts in which “Quis dives salvetur” is preserved are rare, and it has generally been thought that they are only two in number, one of the eleventh century preserved in the Escurial Library in Spain (Class-mark H, III. 19), and a copy of it made in the sixteenth century, and preserved in the Vatican Library at Rome (Vat. Gr. 623).

In fact, there was another copy, a ninth century copy of Quis dives salvetur which was at Mar Saba until the mid-19th century (now listed as ms 23 of the collection of the Monastery of the Holy Cross). Interestingly, someone in Jerusalem was interested in the manuscript at the end of the 17th century, and it was copied into a manuscript now numbered as ms No. 414 of the collection of the Holy Sepulchre.

Then many of the Mar Saba manuscripts were damaged in a fire in the early years of the 18th century. If the paleographers that Smith consulted were correct, it was only about 50 years later that the letter of Theodore was copied into the Voss edition,

Since the issue of the rich young man seems relevant to Secret Gospel of Mark , that one of few manuscripts of QDS should be at the same place and be copied at around the same time is significant.

It is also interesting that the manuscript trail follows what most people assume is Clement's path after fleeing the persecutions of 202 CE in Alexandria. He sought refuge with Alexander, then bishop in Cappadocia, afterward of Jerusalem, from whom he brought a letter to Antioch in 211. There is an important story in Eusebius HE 6.11.6 and cited in a slightly different form in Severus al'Ashmunein which suggests that Clement also ended up in Jerusalem.

It is interesting then that all of the earliest manuscripts of Clement come from these two environs - i.e. Cappadocia and Jerusalem. I just detailed the presence of the oldest manuscript of Quis Dives Salvetur and the Letter to Theodore in the Mar Saba monastery. The oldest surviving manuscript is the tenth century Arethas Codex located in the Bibliotheque Nationale at Paris (Parisinus gr. 451 = P). The manuscript claims to be copied for the Archbishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia between September 913 and August 914. The codex originally contained all of the Protrepticus as well as the three volumes of Clement's Paedagogus.

The text of the Stromateis, Excerpta ex Theodoto, and the Eclogae propheticae is also primarily dependent upon one late manuscript. In the case of these writings, the manuscript is the eleventh-century Laurentianus V 3 (= L) located in Florence, Italy. It has been thought that this manuscript might also have belonged to Arethas, Archbishop of Caesarea. (Stahlin, Stromata Buch I— VI, vii; Ferguson, Introduction to Stromateis, 15. 37).

The evidence would seem to suggest that manuscripts associated with Clement ended up in places near where he lived.

Roger Pearse · 03-26-2011, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

In fact, there was another copy, a ninth century copy of Quis dives salvetur which was at Mar Saba until the mid-19th century (now listed as ms 23 of the collection of the Monastery of the Holy Cross). Interestingly, someone in Jerusalem was interested in the manuscript at the end of the 17th century, and it was copied into a manuscript now numbered as ms No. 414 of the collection of the Holy Sepulchre.

May I ask what your source is for this very interesting information?

I'm having difficulty locating anything resembling a catalogue of manuscripts for either abbey. Any ideas?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

stephan huller · 03-26-2011, 04:21 PM

As strange as this may sound it was from an email from a reputable scholar who didn't want me to publish his name. That's why I was trying to get Agamemnon Tselikas to verify the information. I can't account for people's motivations but I have gotten in trouble before for publishing things without permission or against the original terms of someone granting permission. As such I have to wait to confirm this information but the source is reputable. The one good thing about having a blog is that you get information dumped on you from the unlikeliest of sources. I had a guy awhile back send me scans of actual letters of books that Morton Smith had ordered while overseas in the 1940's. His interest was related to the censorship of mail in and out of Palestine during the war. He had picked it up at an auction. I have had more than person related to a monastery send me information. I want that source of information to continue to provide information. As such I have to wait for Agamemnon Tselikas (a paleographer with an office in Jerusalem and with good relations with the Patriarchate) to confirm the information.

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03-26-2011, 12:05 PM	#13
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I confess that I have been posting these things while watching my son play at one of those bouncing castle emporiums so I can just cite my impression from what I have read. The majority of surviving MSS seem to go back to Arethas the student of Photius probably drawing from texts dating from Clement`s flight to Caesarea. The oldest known MS of Quis Dives Salvetur seems to have one now lost at Mar Saba interestingly enough. The condition of the Arethas material is generally considered to be of poor quality

03-26-2011, 12:11 PM	#14
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Perhaps I should have written “less than ideal” quality

03-26-2011, 12:26 PM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But my sources at Mar Saba say there was an earlier copy of QDS there before the text cited here. Will report more when I get home

03-26-2011, 01:54 PM	#17
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Would be very interesting to know, if so -- thanks!

03-26-2011, 04:21 PM	#20
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	As strange as this may sound it was from an email from a reputable scholar who didn't want me to publish his name. That's why I was trying to get Agamemnon Tselikas to verify the information. I can't account for people's motivations but I have gotten in trouble before for publishing things without permission or against the original terms of someone granting permission. As such I have to wait to confirm this information but the source is reputable. The one good thing about having a blog is that you get information dumped on you from the unlikeliest of sources. I had a guy awhile back send me scans of actual letters of books that Morton Smith had ordered while overseas in the 1940's. His interest was related to the censorship of mail in and out of Palestine during the war. He had picked it up at an auction. I have had more than person related to a monastery send me information. I want that source of information to continue to provide information. As such I have to wait for Agamemnon Tselikas (a paleographer with an office in Jerusalem and with good relations with the Patriarchate) to confirm the information.

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