Freethought & Rationalism Archive

christ-on-a-stick · 10-01-2004, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rfwu

It is actually an artificial consequence, so it can still be interpreted as a threat.

It is exactly the same context a mugger saying, "I will kill you if you don't give me your money!"

Good point. One of my first threads here (in this GRD forum) was something like "Is God the Ultimate Cosmic Rapist"? - elaborating on this point. I will try to find it....

christ-on-a-stick · 10-01-2004, 07:47 PM

Found it

(This goes to what rfwu was alluding to, I think.)

jdlongmire · 10-01-2004, 08:03 PM

Your arguments are invalid because your presupposition is that God does not exist and this presupposition causes you to anthropomorphise God, since that is the only frame of reference you allow yourself.

That is, you mistakenly apply human likenesses, motivations and attributes to God. It is God that "theopomorphises" us. We corrupted the likeness by disobedience.

You are presupposing from the wrong direction.

Can the clay judge the potter? (didn't somebody say that already?)

ZooMom · 10-01-2004, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christ-on-a-stick

Hello Sandy -

But, would you torture your "child" for eternity as a "consequence" of disobedience?

Say, if you had a two-year-old (using that analogy based on the not having knowledge of good and evil thing) who stole cookies out of the cookie jar even when you SPECIFICALLY SAID NOT TO - would you think that locking them in the basement and torturing them until the end of time was an appropriate "consequence"?

Of course not. I also don't think that God would punish someone for eternity for a comparable transgression. I make no judgements, ever (let me stress that again...EVER), on the state of another person's soul. My butt, while a bit wider than I would like, still isn't big enough for to fit in God's chair. The highest truths of my faith are that God is merciful, God is just, God is love. Infinitely. I have faith in that for every soul.

Quote:

*Edited to add: You speak of "consequences of sin". If you are a literalist (i.e. Adam & Eve, Original Sin) - how is that A&E could be punished for their transgression (disobedience) if they did not yet have the knowledge of good and evil?

I'm not exactly a 'literalist' as it pertains to Genesis. Meaning that I believe that it is more allegorical, but nonetheless absolutely true. Adam and Eve were prohibited from eating of the 'tree of knowledge'. God specifically said to keep away from it. Eve's fall, and Adam's, happened because they chose to deliberately go against God's Will. God said not to, they did anyway. They had a choice and they freely made it, even though they had no reason to disobey and every reason to remain obedient.

Peace be with you.

Sandy

Crucifiction · 10-01-2004, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Of course not. I also don't think that God would punish someone for eternity for a comparable transgression. I make no judgements, ever (let me stress that again...EVER), on the state of another person's soul. My butt, while a bit wider than I would like, still isn't big enough for to fit in God's chair. The highest truths of my faith are that God is merciful, God is just, God is love. Infinitely. I have faith in that for every soul.

A deity with all of those attributes wouldn't create a hell for several reasons. For example, what's the point in a punishment, if not to rehabilitate the punished? With the concept of an eternal hell, there is no room for rehabilitation. Even if someone repented for every sin they ever did in life, according to you, he would not be allowed in heaven; even if he accepted your God while in Hell. Equally, the whole idea of eternity is idiotic. Even Hitler would not deserve being tormented for all of ETERNITY. A few thousand years are even a bit of a stretch. Also, there's always the problem that athiests and other non-believers who have done less wrong in their lives than, say, Torquemada or the Conquistadors would be in hell, while those Christians would still be in heaven.

Even if we are merely the "clay", we are a SENTIENT clay, and can therefore judge the potter to the best of our abilities. The God in the Bible is often shown having human feelings {"God repented", "Goth was angry" "God is Love", etc.} and having a thinking process somewhat along the lines that humans have. It's not that different than a German citizen in the thirties and fourties believing that Hitler was wrong.

ZooMom · 10-01-2004, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crucifiction

A deity with all of those attributes wouldn't create a hell for several reasons. For example, what's the point in a punishment, if not to rehabilitate the punished? With the concept of an eternal hell, there is no room for rehabilitation. Even if someone repented for every sin they ever did in life, according to you, he would not be allowed in heaven; even if he accepted your God while in Hell. Equally, the whole idea of eternity is idiotic. Even Hitler would not deserve being tormented for all of ETERNITY. A few thousand years are even a bit of a stretch. Also, there's always the problem that athiests and other non-believers who have done less wrong in their lives than, say, Torquemada or the Conquistadors would be in hell, while those Christians would still be in heaven.

Do you know anyone who has gone to Hell? Me either. :angel:

Quote:

Even if we are merely the "clay", we are a SENTIENT clay, and can therefore judge the potter to the best of our abilities. The God in the Bible is often shown having human feelings {"God repented", "Goth was angry" "God is Love", etc.} and having a thinking process somewhat along the lines that humans have. It's not that different than a German citizen in the thirties and fourties believing that Hitler was wrong.

And what does that tell you about God.

If you, in your limited human compassion cannot fathom sentencing someone (even a genocidal maniac like Hitler) to an eternity (which is relative BTW, as the concept of time only exists on our plane) of torment, how much greater is God's mercy and compassion? I believe Hell exsists. And I have absolute faith in God's mercy. That's about all I can say.

Peace be with you.

Sandy

Magus55 · 10-01-2004, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crucifiction

A deity with all of those attributes wouldn't create a hell for several reasons. For example, what's the point in a punishment, if not to rehabilitate the punished?

Why do atheists always assume punishment is for the sole purpose of rehabilitation? Its not. Life imprisonment/death penalty - not for rehabilitation. Crimes deserve punishment, merely because they are crimes. Rehabilitation is a side effect, and some people just can't be rehabilitated. I'm not that big of a supporter on the value of rehabilitation in prison. I don't think it works too well, at least in capital crimes.

Quote:

Even if we are merely the "clay", we are a SENTIENT clay, and can therefore judge the potter to the best of our abilities. The God in the Bible is often shown having human feelings {"God repented", "Goth was angry" "God is Love", etc.} and having a thinking process somewhat along the lines that humans have. It's not that different than a German citizen in the thirties and fourties believing that Hitler was wrong.

How does sentience lend any support to why you should be able to judge God? And Hitler was wrong, God can't be. Big difference.

ten to the eleventh · 10-01-2004, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZooMom

Well, as both of those scenarios are on the 'Right after the Snowball fight in Hell' list, I feel pretty comfortable saying that if God ever did either of those things He would have a good reason. Even if we didn't know it.

Actually, I don't find these scenarios materially different from other scenarios within the bible that apologists have rationalized. However, that is beside the point because you contend that He must have a good reason, anyway. So you fall in a different category of argument than the person who proposed those two scenarios. Look for my next response.

jdlongmire · 10-01-2004, 08:34 PM

The opportunity for rehabilitation exists - here, now...this is the point of opportunity. If rehabilitation is refused, ultimate consequences should be expected.

ten to the eleventh · 10-01-2004, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZooMom

Because He is my Father, and wants what is good for me. What is good for me is not always what I like. It's like this. Medicine can taste pretty nasty, but if I am sick I take it anyway, and be grateful that it is available to me. Now my child may not have the same POV.

All my child would know is that I am forcing some nasty crap down their throat when they already feel rotten. They don't understand. Does that make me 'wrong' for giving them the medicine? Should I wait until they understand the consequences of bacterial infection and the properties of antibiotics before I medicate them? Or should I go ahead, knowing that they will not be happy with me for a while, but that they will get better, and eventually come to understand? We are but children to God, no matter how intellectual and grown up we believe ourselves to be.

Peace be with you.

Sandy

So, are you saying that you do not judge God to be good, or bad; you simply accept as axiomatic that whatever God does must be good. Is that about it? Your claim, if so, is based on absolutely no reasoning, but only on what God has told you, right? You have said that you do not have the capacity to judge God, so you cannot have judged his goodness, either. God has said, essentially, "I am absolutely and perfectly good, and whatever I do is absolutely and perfectly good," and you have taken His word on it, so to speak. Correct?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-01-2004, 07:47 PM	#32
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Found it (This goes to what rfwu was alluding to, I think.)

10-01-2004, 08:03 PM	#33
jdlongmire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God! Posts: 2,657	Your arguments are invalid because your presupposition is that God does not exist and this presupposition causes you to anthropomorphise God, since that is the only frame of reference you allow yourself. That is, you mistakenly apply human likenesses, motivations and attributes to God. It is God that "theopomorphises" us. We corrupted the likeness by disobedience. You are presupposing from the wrong direction. Can the clay judge the potter? (didn't somebody say that already?)

10-01-2004, 08:34 PM	#39
jdlongmire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God! Posts: 2,657	The opportunity for rehabilitation exists - here, now...this is the point of opportunity. If rehabilitation is refused, ultimate consequences should be expected.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.