johntheapostate

I would like you to confirm or deny if the virgin birth was a deliberate fabrication invented to fulfill a bogus messianic prophecy.

Here is something I posted in BHC and a reply that I received, which I tend to agree with considering the context of the passages in Isaiah.

This is an issue that I have not resolved to my satisfaction. How can Isaiah 7:14 be used as a prophesy for the virgin birth of Christ when the text clearly indicates that this child will be a sign to those Isaiah was talking to and was to occur in a relatively short time

Was the prophetess that Isaiah knocked up as depicted in Isaiah 8:3 the same women as the virgin in chapter 7? It sort off ties in with the story in Chapter 7 but the names of the child/children do not match.

Did the word translated as virgin in Isaiah actually mean virgin and did the author of Isaiah actually intend for his readers to understand that the child would be conceived without sexual intercourse?

Sheshbazzar

These teams of interpreters are known to have biases, and to interpret in ways that are favorable to their own bias, No?
My knowledge of Hebrew and English is sufficient, but there is one big difference in how I translate, I do not employ the 'buzz words' and false names, and doctrines that 'Christian' 'theos'-ology mis-appropriated from pagan sources.
I have no need, my fellow workers in the faith have already completed satisfactory translations into the English language many years ago.
As for myself, I read directly from the Hebrew, and no translation is as good as the original language.

My loyalty is to Yah, The Father, and to His son YAHshua the messiah, and to the Great Assembly on whom His Name is called.
I am not "Jewish" if by that you imply a practitioner of "Jewish" religion as is now practiced, indeed I live in a willful violation of the most vehement of Judaism's traditions and teachings.

If you are aware, us believers "were first called Christians at Antioch", we did not previously apply any such name nor epitaph to our faith, it was imposed upon us from without by our enemies, and only after many years did it filter throughout the world by men not careful of their speech.

Though we believe in the Holy One of Israel, and in the 'Son of Man', as His messiah and Salvation, We are NOT "Christians", our beliefs and doctrine are so different from your ideas of "Christianity" as to constitute an entirely different faith, 'Christians' do not, and indeed can not, accept us as of their own, for the sake of His Name.
(We are as the Gileadites, 'fugitives' amongst the Ephraimites and the Manassites, and the Name of our Saviour, is our "Shibboleth", that is to say, among the 'Catholics' and the 'Protestants' we keep our own WORD.) these are the majority, but shall not prevail with their lips, for to us there is but One Word; see Judges 12:1-6
We do not 'sing their song' neither do they 'sing our song'. how can two walk together except they be agreed?

-Zerubabble-

johntheapostate

{Edited} the only reason I would have any problem with you is if you insisted that I would end up in hell if I did not embrace your savior, god concept.

Am I?

You have not answered my question regarding Isaiah 7:14.

There is no way you could be free of bias in your interpretation, because the Bible does not represent a consensus of any one opinion. Everybody including you folks has to pick and choose.

I am off to bed, so anything more that you post I will reply to later.

Sheshbazzar

John,
I do not insist that you or anyone else will end up in "hell", as I reject both this word, and all of its attendant load of mythical "Christian"-'Boogy-Man' theological biases and trappings.
As firmly as I believe in the existence of Yahweh, I also believe in His mercy, and in His justice, though the Scriptures contain strong imagery regarding the fate of the unbelieving and the willfully wicked, the purpose of this imagery is not set for the ultimate condemnation of men, but as an attempt to persuade all men into the pursuit of better things, a better life, and a better ultimate outcome.
My personal belief and persuasion, is that the worst sentence that any man will suffer for just simply not believing (and honestly, how can anyone believe in what they don't believe in? it is an oxymoron) is just the total and absolute cessation of existence, and to be totally forgotten forever by all men.

As to the subject of IsaYah (Yes'shay'YAH'hu)7:14, to me the Name
"YAH'shua" is my "eem-nu-el" that is to say His Name is the "EL-with-us".

In my view, the story was inspired and created by the Power that causes all things to be, (in Whom also we live, and move, and have our being) with a foreknowledge of how it would eventually be interpreted,
Thus I have no problem with the way that "Paul" employed it, nor even with your present objections, as to me this also is Yahweh's doing, and it is wonderful in my sight.

Yes, I do have my own bias (thankfully) else even I would not know what it is that I believed, Yahweh, bless His Holy Name, has many times brought me to a crossroad where I was forced to choose this word or that word, this idea or that idea, to go to the right hand or to the left, and yes, betimes I have also even had to backtrack after taking a wrong turn, learning, I learn.

Just for a small example, I alone had to choose and decide for my own self how many 'fingerbreadths' are in the 'cubit' and how many are in a measuring 'reed', having read almost as many opinions vouchsafed as there were writers on the subject, there was no unquestionable authority nor standard, and no other better way open to me, than to study for myself, to pray for knowledge and understanding, and to make my best choices,
In so proceeding, I learned many things along the way, about myself, about others, and about the nature of the universe that I live in.
Do I therefor make others my enemies, because I inquired where they had not? or made choices and stood by them, when they had not?
As best as I am able I endeavor to live at peace with all men, encouraging all manner of study, and encouraging every man to employ his talents to the best of his ability.
So in this manner, I do you no ill, The Power, Whom you profess no belief in, may He yet prosper you in your every endeavor, and protect you from all harm all the days of your life;
Amen, b'shem YAHshua ha'mesh'kah ha'adon, Amen.

-Zerubabble-

Cynthia of Syracuse

This discussion is wandering very far afield. johntheapostate and Sheshbazzar, if you wish to discuss biblical translation, start a new thread in BC&H, and stop derailing this thread.

Sheshbazzar

Sorry Cynthia,
It was no deliberate attempt to derail the thread, but an admittedly round about way to address the issue of how Paul and other NT writers were able to employ sayings 'taken out of context' in Prophets, and with a clear conscience apply them as "prophesies" that were "fulfilled" by Yahshua the Messiah. (l-rd-gawd-gee'zus-krist, is a different subject)
Time and time again, repetitiously, day after day ad-nauseam, the same old "errors" and "contradictions" in the text are "disputed" and "disproved",
But TO WHAT END?
This is what I believe "Divine inspiration" to be all about, the Words cause humanity to react, but that reaction is always foreknown and anticipated by The Power, so The Power, deliberately and with a full foreknowledge causes the text to contain the "errors" and "contradictions" for the express purpose of molding our opinions and reactions, and ultimately our character(s) (Its the old clay and the Potter analogy) or just another way of saying we are the products of our environment. (or Reality ne Truth)
Or as He said "I will send them a strong delusion, that they might believe a lie" so if men are "deluded" and believe "lies" Who claims responsibility?
Something you read, hear, or see today will always "inspire" your thoughts, words and actions tomorrow, this was true for the writers of the OT, the NT, and is still true today for the posters to this forum, so tomorrow we run yet again on a treadmill from which there is no escape

Sheshbazzar

OK, back on topic,
Why did ........... die for our sins?
perhaps because it just made for a real interesting story to tell around the 'ol camp fire?
and then after some of the guys who had cooked it up, sobered up, (or was it when they came down off them 'magic mushrooms' ) anyways, one of the guys, said ; "Hey, I just bet we could make a lotta moolah off the local yokels with this!... see, first we scare the hell out of them, and then we can offer to 'save' them...... fer a small fee of course....."
Well we are back on topic anyway!

llamaluvr

John,

I want to answer all your questions, but, as I'm sure you realize, there's a lot of them. I'm pretty busy this week, so it's going to take a little while to get to them all, but I will. So you'll have to be extra-patient with me :-).

In the meantime, I can take Isaiah 7:14, because I know that one basically off the top of my head...

The word "alma", which is often defined as "virgin; young woman" or "a woman of marriable age". It is used in the Bible to mean either a virgin or a young girl, depending on the context- see Genesis 24:43, Exodus 2:8, Psalm 68:25, Proverbs 30:19, Song of Songs 1:3, and Song of Songs 6:8 (okay, so the citations WEREN'T off the top of my head :-P ). This is important, because how we define a word must have some basis in how it is actually used, not just how it is theoretically constructed (we don't drink tea with teaspoons, for example).

So we have precedent that almah has been used elsewhere to mean virgin. We also must note that, in Jewish culture at the time, "young woman" and "virgin" simply go together. By calling somebody a "young woman" at that time, you could pretty much assume virginity. If they weren't virgin and weren't married, you'd be far more likely to be calling them some variant of "a whore". If they weren't virgin and were married, they were far more likely to be "so-and-so's wife". Finally, Hebrew and Greek do not have one-to-one correspondance; in other words, each Hebrew word does not correspond to a Greek word, and vice versa. The goal of translation is largely to preserve meaning over preserving the exact words used, because sometimes the exact words aren't available in the language the text is being translated to.