Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Net2004 · 03-03-2006, 02:20 AM

Quote:

What I know about it is that it's a crock. Morey is a liar and a demagogue. He contrived this "Moon God" canard based on a bit of irrelevant etymology and deceptive quote mining. The name Il (related to the Canaanite/Hebrew El) was originally a name for the Moon God but long before the time of Mohammed it had just acquired the generic definition of "god." Mohammed simply used this term as a proper name. The name Allah has NEVER had any connotation in Islam other than the same Abrahamic God of Moses and Jesus. Mohammed explicitly identified it is such. Allah, in Islam has never had any relationship to a moon god. Mohammed didn't worship the freaking moon. Muslims don't worship the freaking moon. It's frankly rather bizarre that anyone could presume to tell Muslims what they worship. I think they would know it if they worshipped the moon, don't you?

Quote:

This is a response to the following post by Patriot Tim:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblea.../message/19796

MENJ has already written a quite thorough response on his website,
which can be seen here:

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/rahman.htm

I simply wanted to add a little bit more.

> Once again, we see that you exhibit a complete and utter lack of
> knowledge about the subject on which you speak.

With all do respect, I think that between you and MENJ, it is MENJ
who showed a much more sober approach to this issue, and exhibited a
greater amount of erudition on the issue of etymology and/or
establishing connections among deities. This is, by the way, coming
from a non-Muslim, just in case you think I am siding with MENJ out
of some sort of sense of mutual dogma-based brotherhood.

MENJ:
> > But then Mr. Dunkin goes off by the tangent by expounding
> >that "RIMMON" is somehow related to the moon-god nonsense he
> > parrots
> >from Morey. First off, Mr. Dunkin, no one by any stretch of
> >imagination will claim that "ALLAH" has a common root word
> >with "RIMMON".

Patriot Tim:
> To begin, we note that Menj's analysis is complete bunk. There is
> no NEED for there to be a common root word between Rimmon and
> Allah,

Wait a minute... your original claim was that Allaah is a pagan deity
in light of the fact that he is referred to as "ar-Rahman," and you
coupled this with your odd belief that Rahman is somehow synonymous
with Rimmon.

> Hence, in places such as Mecca where the moon deity, whether known
> as
> Sin or Hubal, was big, the tribes each thought of this deity as "al-
> ilah", the highest in their particular pantheon.

This is poor argumentation. We know that archeology had pointed out
that there have been both idolatrous Jews and non-Jews alike who
called upon YHWH, and even to this day pagans (now "New Age" Pagans,
Wiccans, etc) call upon the names Elohim and YHWH in the invocations
and chants. The fact that "pagans" call on a specific deity, and have
something specific in mind, does not tell us anything specific about
the deity or its place in orthodox forms of religion.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblea.../message/19935

This post was written by agnostic Denis Giron.You can read the rest of the post by clicking on the link above.

Toto · 03-03-2006, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

I wonder if the mods think these insults are too ridiculous to edit out...

It's too ridiculous to be an insult, but if you are insulted, please use the report post button.

It is preaching, which we try to discourage (see the mod note above.)

aChristian · 03-03-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

What I know about it is that it's a crock. Morey is a liar and a demagogue. He contrived this "Moon God" canard based on a bit of irrelevant etymology and deceptive quote mining. The name Il (related to the Canaanite/Hebrew El) was originally a name for the Moon God but long before the time of Mohammed it had just acquired the generic definition of "god." Mohammed simply used this term as a proper name. The name Allah has NEVER had any connotation in Islam other than the same Abrahamic God of Moses and Jesus. Mohammed explicitly identified it is such. Allah, in Islam has never had any relationship to a moon god. Mohammed didn't worship the freaking moon. Muslims don't worship the freaking moon. It's frankly rather bizarre that anyone could presume to tell Muslims what they worship. I think they would know it if they worshipped the moon, don't you?

I looked over the website that you pointed to. I have to look into it more, but after a short review, it doesn't seem to answer Morey's claims and fails at showing him to be wrong or deceptive. I have two questions. Have you read his book? Do you know why the Muslims were mad at Salman Rushdie?

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-03-2006, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

I looked over the website that you pointed to. I have to look into it more, but after a short review, it doesn't seem to answer Morey's claims and fails at showing him to be wrong or deceptive. I have two questions. Have you read his book? Do you know why the Muslims were mad at Salman Rushdie?

1. I don't have to read a book to know its allegations are false. The site I linked to answer's Morey's claims just fine, but it also needs to be pointed out to you that Morey is the one with the burden of proof and he has failed utterly to meet it. I also need to point out once again that it's ludicrous to try to tell other people that they don't know who their God is. Mohammed identified Allah as the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Period. That's the God that Muslims worshi. Period. Any argument in this regard is absurd. The ancient etymology of the Arabic word for "god" has no bearing on what the word meant to Mohammed and what it means to Muslims now. Is Yahweh a volcano god? Yes or no?

2. I know what the so-called "Satanic verses" are, if that's what you're getting at. It's an old allegation that Mohammed once briefly recognized some pagan gods. Without getting into a debate about the historicity of that incident, it has no relevance to the meaning of "Allah" in Arabic or with how that god is identified within Islam.

aChristian · 03-03-2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

1. I don't have to read a book to know its allegations are false.
.

That can be true, but it didn't sound like you had read the book and you don't sound like you know enough about it to discount it's thesis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The site I linked to answer's Morey's claims just fine, but it also needs to be pointed out to you that Morey is the one with the burden of proof and he has failed utterly to meet it. I also need to point out once again that it's ludicrous to try to tell other people that they don't know who their God is.
.

The problem is they have such a wrong concept of the God of the OT, it is really misleading to say they are following him, even if they say so. I could call a hammer a pencil, but it is really a hammer not a pencil, no matter what I want to call it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Mohammed identified Allah as the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Period. That's the God that Muslims worshi. Period. Any argument in this regard is absurd. The ancient etymology of the Arabic word for "god" has no bearing on what the word meant to Mohammed and what it means to Muslims now. Is Yahweh a volcano god? Yes or no?
.

No he isn't a volcano god.
I will have to re-read the book since it has been a while since I did so, but I don't think that Morey is claiming the Muslims worship the moon god and I don't think the site you referenced answers his claims. I think he just claims that Mohammed took the main god of his tribe, Allah, the moon god and changed some of the common beliefs about Allah. He blended elements from Christianity, apochryphal literature, and Judaism in with Arab paganism to come up with his new religion. The satanic verses arose because Mohammed caved into the pressure from his fellow Meccans about getting rid of some of the beliefs about Allah (his daughters). I think the thing you are disagreeing about is (tell me if I'm wrong) the point in time when the Meccans stopped thinking of Allah as a moon god and started thinking of him as Allah as Muslims of today think of him.

This all may be much ado about nothing however. The Muslims, or the present day Jews for that matter, may claim to be worshipping the true God of the Old Testament, but if they don't do it the way he prescribes, it is useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

2. I know what the so-called "Satanic verses" are, if that's what you're getting at. It's an old allegation that Mohammed once briefly recognized some pagan gods. Without getting into a debate about the historicity of that incident, it has no relevance to the meaning of "Allah" in Arabic or with how that god is identified within Islam.

This is just evidence that Mohammed took Allah the moon God and modified the beliefs about him, to the anger of the other followers of the Allah of his day. This reinforces the thesis presented above.

Chris Weimer · 03-03-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

The problem is they have such a wrong concept of the God of the OT, it is really misleading to say they are following him, even if they say so. I could call a hammer a pencil, but it is really a hammer not a pencil, no matter what I want to call it.

This is why the Jews today have a concept of God far closer than the Christians of today. You can call Jesus God, but he's still just a man.

Oh, were you actually expecting someone to reply to your unfounded assertions with evidence? Nah.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-03-2006, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

That can be true, but it didn't sound like you had read the book and you don't sound like you know enough about it to discount it's thesis.

I know enough about Islam to know that his premise is bogus.

Quote:

The problem is they have such a wrong concept of the God of the OT, it is really misleading to say they are following him, even if they say so. I could call a hammer a pencil, but it is really a hammer not a pencil, no matter what I want to call it.

What, exactly, is "wrong" about their concept of the OT God? There's actually no difference whatsoever in the way that Muslims and Jews perceive God. It's Christianity that went off the rails by incorporating pagan concepts of "incarnation" and a polytheistic, illogical trinity.

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No he isn't a volcano god.

The etymological relationship of Allah to a moon god is no more salient than the etymological relationship relationship of Yahweh to a volcano god.

Quote:

I will have to re-read the book since it has been a while since I did so, but I don't think that Morey is claiming the Muslims worship the moon god and I don't think the site you referenced answers his claims. I think he just claims that Mohammed took the main god of his tribe, Allah, the moon god and changed some of the common beliefs about Allah.

And Morey would be wrong in that claim. Mohammed believed he had recieved communications from the Abrahamic God of Judaism and Christianity. The Arabic name for that god was Allah. The word did not have any association with a moon god during the time of Mohammed.

Quote:

He blended elements from Christianity, apochryphal literature, and Judaism in with Arab paganism to come up with his new religion.

False. Mohammed incorportaed nothing from Arab paganism. He emphatically REJECTED Arab paganism.

Quote:

The satanic verses arose because Mohammed caved into the pressure from his fellow Meccans about getting rid of some of the beliefs about Allah (his daughters).

Wrong. The story (a story whose historicity is rejected by Islamic scholars, by the way) is that Mohammed (under the influence of Satan) briefly included some pagan gods along with Allah, but those deities were not Allah's daughters and Mohammed did not "get rid of" any beliefs about Allah.

Quote:

I think the thing you are disagreeing about is (tell me if I'm wrong) the point in time when the Meccans stopped thinking of Allah as a moon god and started thinking of him as Allah as Muslims of today think of him.

At no point did the Meccans ever think of Allah as a moon god. I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble getting that through your skull. The word had lost that association by the time of Mohammed. The Meccans never worshipped it, Allah was a generic word for "god" and nothing else, Mohammed never conceived of God in any other way but as the God of Abraham

Quote:

This all may be much ado about nothing however. The Muslims, or the present day Jews for that matter, may claim to be worshipping the true God of the Old Testament, but if they don't do it the way he prescribes, it is useless.

This is statement of pure faith with no debatable content. There's a word for that, it's called "preaching" and you've already been warned about it.

Quote:

This is just evidence that Mohammed took Allah the moon God and modified the beliefs about him, to the anger of the other followers of the Allah of his day. This reinforces the thesis presented above.

It evidences nothing of the sort. For one thing, the Satanic verses do not reference a moon god. For another, as you have been told repeatedly, the name, Allah had nothing to do with any moon god in the time of Mohammed. Mohammed did not adapt a moon god. There WAS NO MOON GOD. It didn't exist.

Net2004 · 03-04-2006, 04:27 AM

I

Quote:

think the thing you are disagreeing about is (tell me if I'm wrong) the point in time when the Meccans stopped thinking of Allah as a moon god and started thinking of him as Allah as Muslims of today think of him.

why didn't R Morey write about his flesh god, 1/2 naked god, blood god? if this is insulting to you then why have you no respect for the Muslim God?

aChristian · 03-04-2006, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

At no point did the Meccans ever think of Allah as a moon god. I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble getting that through your skull. The word had lost that association by the time of Mohammed. The Meccans never worshipped it, Allah was a generic word for "god" and nothing else, Mohammed never conceived of God in any other way but as the God of Abraham

This is statement of pure faith with no debatable content. There's a word for that, it's called "preaching" and you've already been warned about it.

It evidences nothing of the sort. For one thing, the Satanic verses do not reference a moon god. For another, as you have been told repeatedly, the name, Allah had nothing to do with any moon god in the time of Mohammed. Mohammed did not adapt a moon god. There WAS NO MOON GOD. It didn't exist.

You said the word had lost that association by the time of Mohammed. So are you agreeing that it once had that significance? Isn't the disagreement over when the change took place?

aChristian · 03-04-2006, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

I

why didn't R Morey write about his flesh god, 1/2 naked god, blood god? if this is insulting to you then why have you no respect for the Muslim God?

It doesn't really bother me much because I think it lacks understanding. I am not trying to insult anyone. Although I need to study it a little more, I just think that Morey is probably right about the origin of Mohammed's ideas about Allah.

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