Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IBelieveInHymn · 10-02-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Failte

Quote:

I would like to know which word(s) I have redefined. All I did was research the root of the word, and I came to a conclusion,

Not in this thread, my apologies, but the whole misew = 'hate' vs 'love less' is in a different thread. You made the absolutely unsupported claim that "jesus spoke hebrew", so you can argue that the written word doesn't mean what it means in a dozen other cases in the bible, and that the word he REALLY would have said is sin'ah, for which there is zero evidence. How could you possibly know this? You can't.

You cannot research the root of the word (in Hebrew) when you have no evidence that it was used at all, or when your underlying assumption (Jesus spoke Hebrew) is unsupported.

I can find websites that support my position (or any other). This does not make them valid or accurate or even honest. The web is full of apologetics that have no basis in fact, just as they are full of information on thousands of other things people disagree on. I will not even dignify arguments that the earth is flat, but there are an awful lot of supporting websites out there. Please don't fall into the idea that "I can find google pages for any problem" as if being on the web automatically makes it true or remotely reliable. Anything on the web has to be taken with a healthy dose of critical thinking.

We know that in biblical idiom to hate can mean to love less. When, for example, regulations are laid down in the Old Testament law for a man who has two wives, "one beloved and the other hated" (Deut. 21:15), it is not necessary to suppose that he positively hates the latter wife; all that need be meant is that he loves her less than the other and must be prevented from showing favouritism to the other's son when he allocates his property among his heirs. The RSV indicates that positive hatred is not intended by speaking of the one wife as "the loved" and the other as "the disliked," but the Hebrew word used is that which regularly means "hated," and it is so rendered in the AV.

That hating in this saying of Jesus means loving less is shown by the parallel saying in Matthew 10:37: "He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." In Matthew's Gospel these words are followed by the saying about taking up the cross and following Jesus: the implication of this sequence is that giving one's family second place to the kingdom of God is one way of taking up the cross."

--The Hard Sayings of Jesus (Downers Grove IL: InterVarsity Press, 1983), p. 120. Exodus Rabbah 51:8

By three names is this mount known: The mountain of God, 'Mount Horeb' and Mount Sinai. . . .Why 'The mountain of God'? (Exod. 18:5). Because it was there that God manifested His Godhead. And Sinai? Because [it was on that mount] that God showed that He hates The angels and loves mankind.

In Hebrew there is a play on words between Sinai and the word for "hate" which is sane'. The footnote in the Soncino edition explains the saying that God hates the angels and loves mankind: "By giving them His Torah, though the angels desired it.--'Hates' is not meant literally, but simply implies that He showed greater love for man."

--Soncino Exodus Rabbah, p. 571.

Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Colman M. Mockler Distinguished Professor of Old Testament at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Massachusetts:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/.../#anchor620723

WVIncagold · 10-02-2009, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Sadly No.

So when you said this

Quote:

I'm only following what GOD said to do, and what NOT to do. I follow YHWH because his word is sacred.

Then you were not being truthful then were you? another commandment broken.
If your gods word is sacred then why do you not follow it verbatim? I would think a god would be pretty pissed if you were sacrilegious. And a review of the bible tends to lend credance to a petulant narcisist who pretty much demands your total observance.
Unless of course you want to redifine the word not. :devil1:

Failte · 10-02-2009, 11:38 AM

Please don't copy and paste the same arguments for your use of the word here, IBIH - it's been hashed out in depth and clearly refuted in this thread, Atheists don't understand the bible....

IBelieveInHymn · 10-02-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Sadly No.

So when you said this

Quote:

I'm only following what GOD said to do, and what NOT to do. I follow YHWH because his word is sacred.

Then you were not being truthful then were you? another commandment broken.
If your gods word is sacred then why do you not follow it verbatim? I would think a god would be pretty pissed if you were sacrilegious. And a review of the bible tends to lend credance to a petulant narcisist who pretty much demands your total observance.
Unless of course you want to redifine the word not. :devil1:

I think you totally missed the part of Jesus forgiving us for our sins. And I never considered myself a Saint or a Pope. God knows I sin, and he knows in my heart, I need his help and salvation.

You wanna talk about pissed off Gods?

Let's start with the people who disbelieve in him, but choose to slander his name?

If you consider me a sinner because I do not worship all 613 Commandments, then atheists must be in serious trouble.

I have sinned this morning, but I raise my hands to the Heavens, And I cry out for Jesus' forgivness, and if I ask with a sincere heart and mind, all is saved.

That is the beauty of Christianity.

Our God is all-forgiving.

Maybe you missed that part, too?

IBelieveInHymn · 10-02-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Failte

Please don't copy and paste the same arguments for your use of the word here, IBIH - it's been hashed out in depth and clearly refuted in this thread, Atheists don't understand the bible....

I don't have the time right now to sort through that thread. But can you show me where my last posting was refuted?

If not, I will just post the same article in there, and then see who refutes it.

I think I would believe a jewish bible scholar over an internet atheist any day of the week.

call me close minded, but I see it one way, and that's that.

No atheist in this universe will change my mind.

Sheshbazzar · 10-02-2009, 12:01 PM

As I pointed out earlier, in spite of all of IBIH's enthusiasm for 'God' and The Bible, he as yet is not living subject to the Bible's clear examples of the practice(s) of the Christian faith.
There is no 'Christian' to be found anywhere in The New Testement that was not a member of The Church, and practiced assembling together with like minded men for fellowship, prayer, praise, and a communal undertaking of good works. _ to not 'join' one's self to, or to renounce or deny 'membership' within the community of the saints, was (and still IS) to NOT be a member of THE CHURCH, and to remain apart from the ONE and only 'body' of Christ on earth.
IBelieveInHymn, no matter how strenuously he preaches and pontificates here, is not (yet) by his own admissions, a member of THE Christian CHURCH, nor by definition a practicing 'Christian'.
Certainly, he might claim the name, or some others here might be willing to ascribe it to him, but until he does join a congregation and lives within the fellowship and communion of other believers, he is not under any obligation to submit to any such rules and requirements as those so joined together in ONE body, by individual consent agree to live subject to.
Cribing quotes fom the Internet, is nowhere the equivelent of joining a Church, and living subject to all of the ordinances, sacraments, and dictates of the Faith, as interpreted by the authorities within that Church.
In his present condition, as a NON-CHURCH member, he is free to make whatever he will of anything within The Bible, for he submits to no authority of THE Church (any Church), but that 'freedom' is maintained only at the cost of remaining separate from THE Church, and outside of the organization known as THE body of Christ.
He does not eat of that bread, neither does he drink of that wine at the table of the Brethren.

What is it to me? I know the ways and the whys of these things from a child,
IBIH comes here with many arguments, yet by not actually being a Christian in his walk, he speaks much foolishness about he knows not what.
Were he to become a Christian, then perhaps he might evolve into becoming a worthy opponent, yet today, as being one outside of that religion of his admiration, it is only so much hot air.

My guess is, should he endeavor to join himself to any Church, and to report his participation here in these forums to the Pastor, or Elders, they would immediately counsel him to desist and to hold his peace; They likely do not participate here, and would not desire to have a 'wet behind the ears' new convert, with so little knowledge or tact, presenting or representing the deep things of their Faith.

Sai · 10-02-2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Failte

Please don't copy and paste the same arguments for your use of the word here, IBIH - it's been hashed out in depth and clearly refuted in this thread, Atheists don't understand the bible....

I don't have the time right now to sort through that thread. But can you show me where my last posting was refuted?

If not, I will just post the same article in there, and then see who refutes it.

I think I would believe a jewish bible scholar over an internet atheist any day of the week.

call me close minded, but I see it one way, and that's that.

No atheist in this universe will change my mind.

Im sure they wont. Only you could change your mind. And you probably wont, which will not bother any of us.

Any scientist, or other person capable or rational thought on the other hand..

they believe according to where evidence and rational thought takes them.

If i saw evidence of God, why, I'd be shocked, and I would quickly change my whole approach to life. If I found out my significant other was cheating on me, Id be shocked but I would never trust him again.

If physicists discovered the speed of light changes, well, out go the old theories. Show me evidence of the "flood" and i will accept it.

Id be a poor poor excuse for a science student if I said I believe ANYTHING and that is that, nothing can ever change my mind.

The thing is, if a person cannot every change their mind no matter what, that only says something about them, not about the nature of reality.

I am so glad my grip on reality does not depend on something so untenable as the claim that there really is evidence for noahs flood. I would not dare to look, because I'd be staring into the collapse of my world.

Sheshbazzar · 10-02-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I don't pick and choose any rules. I read the bible, and I TRY to live accordingly. If I'm wrong in making these decisions, God will inform me on Judgement day. That's all I can do is make my own decisions, and not worry about what someone else has to say about the bible. I'll figure it out on my own.

Hymn, a God that only informed you of your errors on Judgment Day, when it is far too late to repent and make amends, would not be much of a loving God.
A 'Good Shepherd' uses His rod and staff to guide, and to lead His flock while they are yet the upon the hills and within the pastures.
For this cause, seeing His peoples errors, time and time, again He sent His Prophets, and they spoke His words, but many among the people said;
'We will make our own decisions, and not worry about what someone else has to say.....'

No Robots · 10-02-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

IBelieveInHymn, no matter how strenuously he preaches and pontificates here, is not (yet) by his own admissions, a member of THE Christian CHURCH, nor by definition a practicing 'Christian'.

I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.--Thomas Jefferson

jakejonesiv · 10-02-2009, 12:49 PM

You mean with all this preaching, IBelieveInHim doesn't even go to church? That is disillusioning.

i^am very ^sad
If you really believed in Jesus you would go to Church instead of trolling around with atheists all day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

As I pointed out earlier, in spite of all of IBIH's enthusiasm for 'God' and The Bible, he as yet is not living subject to the Bible's clear examples of the practice(s) of the Christian faith.
There is no 'Christian' to be found anywhere in The New Testement that was not a member of The Church, and practiced assembling together with like minded men for fellowship, prayer, praise, and a communal undertaking of good works. _ to not 'join' one's self to, or to renounce or deny 'membership' within the community of the saints, was (and still IS) to NOT be a member of THE CHURCH, and to remain apart from the ONE and only 'body' of Christ on earth.
IBelieveInHymn, no matter how strenuously he preaches and pontificates here, is not (yet) by his own admissions, a member of THE Christian CHURCH, nor by definition a practicing 'Christian'.
Certainly, he might claim the name, or some others here might be willing to ascribe it to him, but until he does join a congregation and lives within the fellowship and communion of other believers, he is not under any obligation to submit to any such rules and requirements as those so joined together in ONE body, by individual consent agree to live subject to.
Cribing quotes fom the Internet, is nowhere the equivelent of joining a Church, and living subject to all of the ordinances, sacraments, and dictates of the Faith, as interpreted by the authorities within that Church.
In his present condition, as a NON-CHURCH member, he is free to make whatever he will of anything within The Bible, for he submits to no authority of THE Church (any Church), but that 'freedom' is maintained only at the cost of remaining separate from THE Church, and outside of the organization known as THE body of Christ.
He does not eat of that bread, neither does he drink of that wine at the table of the Brethren.

What is it to me? I know the ways and the whys of these things from a child,
IBIH comes here with many arguments, yet by not actually being a Christian in his walk, he speaks much foolishness about he knows not what.
Were he to become a Christian, then perhaps he might evolve into becoming a worthy opponent, yet today, as being one outside of that religion of his admiration, it is only so much hot air.

My guess is, should he endeavor to join himself to any Church, and to report his participation here in these forums to the Pastor, or Elders, they would immediately counsel him to desist and to hold his peace; They likely do not participate here, and would not desire to have a 'wet behind the ears' new convert, with so little knowledge or tact, presenting or representing the deep things of their Faith.

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10-02-2009, 11:38 AM	#123
Failte Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,405	Please don't copy and paste the same arguments for your use of the word here, IBIH - it's been hashed out in depth and clearly refuted in this thread, Atheists don't understand the bible....

10-02-2009, 12:01 PM	#126
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	As I pointed out earlier, in spite of all of IBIH's enthusiasm for 'God' and The Bible, he as yet is not living subject to the Bible's clear examples of the practice(s) of the Christian faith. There is no 'Christian' to be found anywhere in The New Testement that was not a member of The Church, and practiced assembling together with like minded men for fellowship, prayer, praise, and a communal undertaking of good works. _ to not 'join' one's self to, or to renounce or deny 'membership' within the community of the saints, was (and still IS) to NOT be a member of THE CHURCH, and to remain apart from the ONE and only 'body' of Christ on earth. IBelieveInHymn, no matter how strenuously he preaches and pontificates here, is not (yet) by his own admissions, a member of THE Christian CHURCH, nor by definition a practicing 'Christian'. Certainly, he might claim the name, or some others here might be willing to ascribe it to him, but until he does join a congregation and lives within the fellowship and communion of other believers, he is not under any obligation to submit to any such rules and requirements as those so joined together in ONE body, by individual consent agree to live subject to. Cribing quotes fom the Internet, is nowhere the equivelent of joining a Church, and living subject to all of the ordinances, sacraments, and dictates of the Faith, as interpreted by the authorities within that Church. In his present condition, as a NON-CHURCH member, he is free to make whatever he will of anything within The Bible, for he submits to no authority of THE Church (any Church), but that 'freedom' is maintained only at the cost of remaining separate from THE Church, and outside of the organization known as THE body of Christ. He does not eat of that bread, neither does he drink of that wine at the table of the Brethren. What is it to me? I know the ways and the whys of these things from a child, IBIH comes here with many arguments, yet by not actually being a Christian in his walk, he speaks much foolishness about he knows not what. Were he to become a Christian, then perhaps he might evolve into becoming a worthy opponent, yet today, as being one outside of that religion of his admiration, it is only so much hot air. My guess is, should he endeavor to join himself to any Church, and to report his participation here in these forums to the Pastor, or Elders, they would immediately counsel him to desist and to hold his peace; They likely do not participate here, and would not desire to have a 'wet behind the ears' new convert, with so little knowledge or tact, presenting or representing the deep things of their Faith.

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