Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 06-21-2007, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

You two are arguing as if these stories were historical.

Of course they are not historical, but they tell us a lot about the beliefs and mindsets of those that wrote them.

I agree none of the stories involving Moses are historical, and are doubtful even based loosely on any historical events. If we accept that much of the OT was penned in a fairly short period of time, then we have to acknowledge that the story about the guy who was collecting wood on the Sabbath was penned at about the same time as the commands not to work on the Sabbath.

The story is not properly seen as confusion over the matter from that perspective, but instead, is a parable to indicate erring on the side of caution in regards to the commands. It could only be viewed as confusion on the matter if the story is deemed historical.

spamandham · 06-21-2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

... following Christ was made illegal for centuries, until it finally dawned on the Romans that 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'.

Can you back this claim up with anything of substance?

Clivedurdle · 06-22-2007, 03:10 AM

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Falwell lite.

I am having a strong feeling of deja vu. I have heard or read this stuff somewhere, I can't remember where. Armstrong? JW?

Sauron · 06-25-2007, 11:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Clouseau

Too far unbelievable to need any reply.

Ah.

That would be the final stage where, after having his claims dissected, Clouseau tosses out the non-sequitir to cover his exit.

Sauron · 06-25-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

following Christ was made illegal for centuries, until it finally dawned on the Romans that 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'.

Uh, wrong.

Quote:

So citizens of the empire thereafter enjoyed a sort of immunity from the demands of the gospel- they were already Christians because they had been baptised, because their own ruler said they were, and nobody was going to argue, who wanted to live long.

Silly fairy tale.

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The Arabs, who had no suitable connexion with the early church, eventually followed suit, with their own umbrella religion to keep bad consciences from all, with no exceptions.

Is it possible that you know even less about the history of islam than you know about the history of christianity?

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What of the Jews? They were soon deprived of Temple, sacrificial system, and even Promised Land. There can have been very few of them who did not wonder if God had abandoned them because they had rejected Jesus as their Messiah.

Uh, I suspect that if they did wonder if God had abandoned them, they probably never thought that rejection of Christ was the cause.

Apparently you haven't talked to many Jews who understand their own religion or history. Either that, or you're just bluffing when you say you've talked to any Jews whatsoever.

Quote:

But for the fantasy, or the fact, of Christ, as one decides, there would have been no 'Catholic Church' and no Islam,

Ah. Working on your own version of history, I see. Is this the big-screen version, or will it go straight to DVD and comic book release?

RED DAVE · 06-26-2007, 12:20 AM

From Clouseau:

Quote:

What of the Jews?

What of us?

From Clouseau:

Quote:

They were soon deprived of Temple, sacrificial system, and even Promised Land. There can have been very few of them who did not wonder if God had abandoned them

Definitely something that was considered.

From Clouseau:

Quote:

because they had rejected Jesus as their Messiah.

Not bloody, fucking likely. Why would we wonder about one more pseudo-messiah executed by the Romans?

From Clouseau:

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Those who did not must have wondered whether Judaism had ever been any more than a myth.

Why would we do that? According to the Jewish religion, God had forsaken us before because of our sins. Why should this time be any different? And we had enemies before who had exiled us.

From Clouseau:

Quote:

But, like Europeans and Arabs, many Jews needed an umbrella to shield them from the gaze of God, so they carried on as best they could, as they still do.

Uh, right. How we "carried on" is called the Jewish religion and Jewish culture. And it's as good as any religion or culture around.

From Clouseau:

Quote:

But for the fantasy

Right on there.

From Clouseau:

Quote:

or the fact, of Christ

Nuh-uh.

From Clouseau:

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as one decides

Jews decided 2000 years ago it was a fanasy. Nothing has happened since to change our minds.

From Clouseau:

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there would have been no 'Catholic Church'

Okay.

From Clouseau:

Quote:

and no Islam

Maybe.

From Clouseau:

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and, due to disillusionment and apparent rejection, Judaism would quite probably by now have simply died away into a long-forgotten historical religion.

What a projection! Judaism survived quite well in parts of the world with little or no Christianity, like in India and in the Middle East.

You really have to get off this antisemitic practice of telling Jews what we think.

RED DAVE

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