Solo

Doesn't work for me, Joe. 90's is too late. Mark is working two tracks : the 30's of Tiberius and his own times, for 13:30 (this generation will not pass away) to work in both frames, Mark has to write earlier.

The Jesus ben Ananus scourging by Albinus is tempting but for once I agree with Earl Doherty: it was probably in oral circulation before Josephus put a quill to it.

The "den of robbers" references Zechariah which Maccoby thought - fairly I believe - was a favourite apocalyptic prophet of the Jerusalem messianists.

Zech 14:21 and every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be sacred to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the flesh of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader (Canaanite) in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.

(Note other familiar themes in Mark from Zech 14).


The "den of robbers" is however important in that it is directly referenced in the arrest of Jesus:

Mk 14:48-49 And Jesus said to them, "Have you come out as against a robber (lesths), with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. But let the scriptures be fulfilled."

The scriptures here (Mark forever handing the meshugah to the Pharisees) are Paul's Rom 4:25, and Rom 8:32, according to which Jesus was 'delivered up'.

The 'as if a robber' here invokes Isaiah 53:12, 'he was reckoned with the transgressors' (which was later written explicitly into Mk 15:28 in some MSS).

So, Joe, who could be the other transgressors of the law, hanging alongside Jesus ? Hmmm.....mystery !

Except, Barrabas, is not called lesths in Mark 15:7 but stasiastes. :huh:

Jiri

JoeWallack

JW:
You should know better than to proof-text Solo. Have you been slumming at Tweeb? I have an entire Thread demonstrating it more likely that "Mark" is second century:

The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original 2nd Cent Gospel

Note especially the anachronisms. They have numbers. Regarding their post Temple context, consider that an author writing shortly after the Temple destruction would still remember the pre destruction setting meaning it more likely the writing was long after. There is logic to your observation that the generation prediction is evidence of sooner. It's just not enough. As is often the case with questions of Christian origins, it's only the overall uncertainty of any dating here that even makes a 1st century date possible.

The la-la is the one piece of "Mark" that seems out of place to me. Strictly religious by itself and lacking the style of "Mark". I see "Mark" as Greek Tragedy (art) with a subject of religion but the la-la makes me think that it may be the other Way, Religion with a style of Greek Tragedy. Combined with the rest of "Mark" though the la-la works just fine as Greek Tragedy. The Judges judgment to convict Jesus is in response to his prediction that he will judge them (irony) and the long drawn out instructions to his Disciples are just another comedic/ironic touch as they shortly abandon him and always remind me of the classic scene from Blazing Saddles:

and Methodists!

JW:
This is why you need to have criteria for parallels. "Mark" uses the word "lestai" (repeatedly) and Zechariah does not. Josephus has the context of the lestai in the Temple. The parallels are objective. The conclusions are more subjective. Let the parallels guide.

JW:
Just more support for me Solo. "Mark" invoking "lestai", military and Temple in a short space. Is "Mark" referencing the near capture of Titus during one of the lestais sorties out of the Temple?

JW:
Yea, I've indicated the reason for "Mark" avoiding the easy parallels to 53 is that his model for the Passion is David.

JW:
They're providing double duty (so to speak) which is one of "Mark's" styles. As mentioned, they are intended to invoke the historical robbers in the Temple and are Fictional replacements for James and John. "Mark" thought of James as claiming he was the historical successor to Jesus, promoting Jesus life and basking in Jesus' reputation when he should have been promoting Jesus' supposed Passion and suffering for the cause.

JW:
Like I said, this gives the context (the insurrection). The robbers are who Barabbas is bound with. What other explanation would even make sense? Only the robbers are crucified but not the insurrectionists?

More importantly. I Am going to Vienna. Any recommended sights?



Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Solo

Yup, it is a tragicomical opera, all right, he was pulling leg (1)of the Pharisses whom he browbeat as Jesus with inane arguments and meshugah readings of the scripture, (conflating the tanakh with Paul and creating the 11th commandment, for crying out loud !), and (2) the Petrines whom he considered idiots and psychic swine. Read Mt 7:6 as the answer to Mk 4:12 - btw, you did notice that both Sinaiticus and Vaticanus have different different locale resp. for Mark's one demoniac and Matt's Gerasa/Gadara two demoniacs. Conclusion ? Matt wanted to throw the insult back at Mark. Why two demoniacs ? The answer is, why two robbers. You'll figure it out.

My read of Mark (later aka Simon Magus): philosophically a stoic, professionally a Pauline therapeut, temperamentally a divine madman (very unPauline). On twenty modern pages, he created a persona that dominated the western civilization for 2000 years. Out of what ? Out of a collective profile of a group of maniacs who each thought God was very pleased with them. He showed them how the spirit cycle worked - they would complete the round trip on the metaphoric cross. And if they did not accept the baptism into JC's death in the tomb (Rom 6:3-6) at the end, they would be sent up running back with the women to the beginning of the gospel (Rom 8:15)to start again as Jesus repairing from Nazaret, the city of tombs. Talk to me about genius ! Talk to me about misreading a genius !

Great city; was there twice in seriously mad love affairs, so the memorable sights were mostly nobody else's business , but...if you like biking, hiking or horseback make sure you are seen in Wienerwald.

Have fun !

Jiri

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

GakuseiDon

If you like cannon-ball sized pork roast surrounded by crackling and huge glass mugs of beer, then I recommend the Schweizerhaus beer garden. Great place! If going by train, note that it is a bit hard to find after leaving the train station, so make sure you have a map handy.

Solo

I wonder if anyone noticed the strange 'synestaurōmenoi/synstaurōthentes syn autō' (co-crucified with him) in Mk 15:32 and Matt 27:44. It is interesting that most of the manuscripts incl. Sinaticus and Vaticanus have the preposition 'with' which is redundant because the same is indicated by the verb's prefix. The preposition was removed in later manuscripts.

Any ideas ? Looks to me like Matthew wanted to make a comment on something here. I believe that the remark about the robbers in Mk 15:32 was 'imported' into the earlier gospel as oneidizō (revile, upbraid) is a hapax to Mark but used in two other places by Matthew, one of them significantly on the Mount (5:11).

Best,
Jiri

la70119

Well it gets curioser and curioser! Just who were the two lestai for whom the crosses were prepared? For the triumphal entry, Mark writes that Jesus has two unnamed disciples of his to go and steal a donkey:

No evidence they ever returned the donkey, as J says they would. It is merely assumed so by Christians.

outhouse

like it or not jesus death had to do with money.

Depending on how much of the tempe incident has any historicty to it or not, starting a stink in the bank on a roman payday will get you killed asap. While maintaining the money flow takes priority within the bank.


jesus tried screwing up the romans payday, he wanted to start or incite a riot that would STOP the money flow and hit the romans where it hurt.



GMark writing to a roman audience is not going to make romans the bad guys, and has no interest in building a HJ since they are dealing with a strickly BJ.

the authors of Gmark didnt have a clue who was put next to him on a cross, there may have been no one.

Solo

Interesting. You think they would get a max penalty for that ?


Best,
Jiri

Solo

The temple was not used to collect taxes for the Romans, but the temple tax. The money changers were exchanging coins to the currency acceptable for that purpose.

...and how do you know this ?

Best,
Jiri

Diogenes the Cynic

Well, the author had no way of knowing, having no access to witnesses. There probably never even were any witnesses. Jesus' posse is unlikely to have stuck around to watch.

I think it's possible that Mark used Josephus, which gives Mark a 2nd century date, I know), or perhaps simply layered onto an ur-Mark (and I think the change of verb tense in the text might indicate this, though Mark has a tendency to go back and forth between past and present tense all the time. His Greek is not sophisticated or urbane. It sounds very conversational and plebian, sometimes strikingly so if one is accustomed only to the artificial formality of conventional translations).

Jospephus tells a story about seeing three friends of his hung out on crosses, going and appealing to the Emperor Titus (Josephus just happened to know him) to let them down. They were let down from the cross. One of them lived, two of them died.

(Life 76)


Joseph also tells us that he is the son of Matthias, so he is Josephus bar Matthia. I think Mark (or a redactor of Mark) morphed it into a place name to serve the story.