Duvduv

Sorry, I don't know what you mean. Justin repeatedly states a number of "facts" based on faith for which he has no proof, and that includes that his Jesus was born of the virgin. But that is only one case. BUT IF HE BELIEVED that his Jesus LIVED ON EARTH, why wouldn't he want to tell us where he found out about that, whether from the man at the seashore or anywhere else, regardless of whether Jesus was born of a virgin or not. We simply would like to know how he came to the belief that Jesus had lived on Earth a little over a century earlier........

In any event, I am prepared to argue that the Apology of Justin was TAMPERED WITH years after the original was written, to make it apply more directly to the historical Jesus doctrine, as I posted above. It is very possible that Justin was no different that Athenogoras, Tatian etc. and had written a monotheistic, or non-literal Jesus treatise that was "updated" later.

Duvduv

Justin was the first writer to address the worldly life of his Jesus. That is why I keep talking about the celestial Christ. When a writer shows no knowledge of ANYTHING about the life of the Christ in this world, it stands to reason that he does not believe that the Christ ever walked among men, ever taught men, ever interacted with humans in the physical realm.

aa5874

Why don't you read the writings attributed to Justin Martyr and not use your imagination.

Justin STATED that he used the "Memoirs of the Apostles" that he believed was written by the apostles and those who followed Jesus.

Dialogue with Trypho"
"Dialogue with Trypho"
Well, you have ZERO evidence for such an argument. You have ZERO evidence that the Apology of Justin Martyr was manipulated BECAUSE you will NOT then be able to EXPLAIN why the writings of Athenagoras and Tatian were left UNALTERED when the Church was aware of the writings of Tatian and others who did NOT mention anything about Jesus and/or Christ..

Theophilus of Antioch did NOT mention Jesus Christ in his THREE books "To Autolycus" and he was known to Church writer yet his writings were NOT manipulated to show Jesus was believed to have existed on earth.

"Church History" 4.201. According to the Church Theophilus of Antioch was a bishop of Corinth and his writings SHOW ZERO evidence of manipulation and he did NOT mention Jesus Christ.

"To Autolycus" 1 Theophilus, supposedly a Bishop of Corinth, does NOT say he is a Christian because of Jesus Christ and his writings are left UNALTERED.

Theophilus, supposedly a Bishop of Corinth, does NOT write in his THREE books that Jesus was born of a Virgin, was crucified, resurrected and ascended yet his books are left UNALTERED.

Justin Martyr was NOT even a bishop but you are claiming his writings were manipulated WITHOUT a shred of evidence.

You cannot argue that Justin Martyr's writings were manipulated when you have ZERO evidence.

Duvduv

You and I are approaching this very differently. I don't consider the supposed histories of people like Eusebius or Jerome or Tertullian or Irenaeus to be infallible. They had information or misinformation, and therefore what they present must and should be taken with a huge grain of salt. We have no corroborating information from other sources especially known first hand sources. Therefore I stand with what I said before.

The treatise by Theophilus was not originally a Christian document but was ADOPTED and adapted. Please see my earlier postings.

I will go one step further and say that I don't even believe the Dialogue with Trypho and the Apology of Justin were written by the same person.......

Duvduv

Statements of the Justin Apology:
Chapter 13:
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judæa, in the times of Tiberius Cæsar;

Chapter 30:
But lest any one should meet us with the question, What should prevent that He whom we call Christ, being a man born of men, performed what we call His mighty works by magical art, and by this appeared to be the Son of God?

Chapter 34:
And hear what part of earth He was to be born in, as another prophet, Micah, foretold. He spoke thus: And you, Bethlehem, the land of Judah, are not the least among the princes of Judah; for out of you shall come forth a Governor, who shall feed My people. Micah 5:2 Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judæa.

Chapter 46:
He was born of a virgin as a man, and was named Jesus, and was crucified, and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, an intelligent man will be able to comprehend from what has been already so largely said. And we, since the proof of this subject is less needful now, will pass for the present to the proof of those things which are urgent.

Chapter 61:
And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

Chapter 63 clearly has later additions referring to Jesus as GOD, something which existed in none of the original writings, including those of "Paul":
For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe in Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers, Exodus 3:6 this signified that they, even though dead, are yet in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote

aa5874

What you claim has not ever been shown to be true. You have NOT presented any original writings of Justin Martyr. You have merely PRESUMED that there are later additions.

Duvduv

Come on, show me one place in any gospel, epistle or even any other early writing referring to the Christ as God himself....and while you're at it, take a look at those references I offered from Justin's Apology.

aa5874

You Specifically claimed that there are later additions of chapter 63 but have NOT shown any evidence that there are EARLIER writings of Justin Martyr without "your presumed additions".

Please present your sources with the original writings of Justin WITHOUT "your additions".

Duvduv

Doesn't it say somewhere "Seek and Ye Shall Find"??
Seek my message #135.

Duvduv

The bottom line is if in fact bits and pieces of monotheistic writers which were later interpolated with Christian references started to be produced in the 2nd century, then essentially the texts of the whole world of the Christ-centered movement(s) that became part of the NT canon did not exist until into the 3rd century and perhaps even into the 4th century.

Such that it is even possible that the epistles and gospels emerged independent of one another in different locations. Very possibly the Paul (="Small One" sort of like appelations such as El Greco or Poor Richard's Almanac) was put into writing as an INDIVIDUAL in Acts BEFORE the official versions of the epistles were put together inasmuch as we see so many differences between that Paul and the Paul pseudonym of assorted epistles that even differed to greater or lesser extents from each other as we already know.

All that is left is the likelihood of small secret societies or fellowships emerging in the second century out of Greek mysteries and Platonism affiliated with admiration of the ancient Jewish scriptures and traditions who got together on Sundays or other days to share stories and rituals and meals, presenting differing views of messianism/salvation and purification for the next world that are reflected in the contrasting ideas and teachings of the assorted Christ-centered texts.