Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 03-01-2007, 10:01 AM

Clement of Rome in his letter to the Corinthians c 95 CE apparently believed that Paul (and Peter) had been martyred.

Even if 2 Timothy is not by Paul it reflects an early belief that Paul died a martyr.

Andrew Criddle

CJD · 03-01-2007, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

The tour guides state it all as if it were fact and I'm sure most people don't even question it.

Maybe a great many Catholics don't question it. But I assure you, most Protestants are skeptics on this point.

fta · 03-01-2007, 02:55 PM

As I recall some Protestant scholars argue that Peter never went to Rome at all.

hatsoff · 03-01-2007, 04:35 PM

It seems to me that the cumulative weight of the evidence indicates beyond reasonable doubt that he was persecuted and put in prison for his religious preaching. Given that, it doesn't seem too far a jump to suppose the martyrdom traditions were also accurate. I wouldn't call it a certainty, though.

spamandham · 03-01-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

It seems to me that the cumulative weight of the evidence indicates beyond reasonable doubt that he was persecuted and put in prison for his religious preaching.

There isn't anything we think we know about 2000 year old history that is even close to being beyond reasonable doubt. The only evidence we have Paul went to prison are a few letters and tradition. Couldn't those have been fabricated just as easily?

How many people spent any significant time in Roman prisons I wonder, and then managed to escape?

rlogan · 03-01-2007, 07:10 PM

Cumulative weight of what evidence?

Detering's Fabricated Paul thread:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=141720

The first writings we can identify with any mention of the legendary Paul are via the hand of Marcion. He may not have written them himself, and indeed the ten he included in the first canon we know of were not all from the same hand. But the purpose of "Paul" is to imbue a "Pauline" school of thought with a fabricated mantle of legendary authority.

The common theme from Genesis straight through the entire Bible. Fabricating legendary authority.

And the True Believers are aghast whenever anyone points out the obvious.

Johann_Kaspar · 03-02-2007, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

He didn't.

"Tarzan is contemptuous of the hypocrisy of civilization, and he and Jane return to Africa where, both being immortal, they still live." (Tarzan)

Great! So we can suppose that Paul, Jesus still live too...

After all, literature characters never die.

Johann_Kaspar · 03-02-2007, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fta

As I recall some Protestant scholars argue that Peter never went to Rome at all.

Jacob and Shimon were executed. Acts and Josephus acknowledge it.

Johann_Kaspar · 03-02-2007, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

It seems to me that the cumulative weight of the evidence indicates beyond reasonable doubt that he was persecuted and put in prison for his religious preaching. Given that, it doesn't seem too far a jump to suppose the martyrdom traditions were also accurate. I wouldn't call it a certainty, though.

Please, provide your evidence. Except xian sources, you have nothing. And xian sources contain a lot of fictions, especially about "witnesses".

put in prison for his religious preaching. By the Romans

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

fta · 03-02-2007, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

Jacob and Shimon were executed. Acts and Josephus acknowledge it.

Sorry, am I missing something? Who are Jacob and Shimon, and what does this have to do with Peter visiting Rome?

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03-01-2007, 10:01 AM	#11
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	Clement of Rome in his letter to the Corinthians c 95 CE apparently believed that Paul (and Peter) had been martyred. Even if 2 Timothy is not by Paul it reflects an early belief that Paul died a martyr. Andrew Criddle

03-01-2007, 02:55 PM	#13
fta Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Oceania Posts: 334	As I recall some Protestant scholars argue that Peter never went to Rome at all.

03-01-2007, 04:35 PM	#14
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	It seems to me that the cumulative weight of the evidence indicates beyond reasonable doubt that he was persecuted and put in prison for his religious preaching. Given that, it doesn't seem too far a jump to suppose the martyrdom traditions were also accurate. I wouldn't call it a certainty, though.

03-01-2007, 07:10 PM	#16
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	Cumulative weight of what evidence? Detering's Fabricated Paul thread: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=141720 The first writings we can identify with any mention of the legendary Paul are via the hand of Marcion. He may not have written them himself, and indeed the ten he included in the first canon we know of were not all from the same hand. But the purpose of "Paul" is to imbue a "Pauline" school of thought with a fabricated mantle of legendary authority. The common theme from Genesis straight through the entire Bible. Fabricating legendary authority. And the True Believers are aghast whenever anyone points out the obvious.

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