spin

I don't know how you think you know what the audience knew, but you are merely saying it is your opinion that Paul doesn't mean what he says. He must mean what you think he should mean, despite his saying specifically that the Jews put Jesus to death.

All this discussion about Romans is ultimately--it would seem--you retrojecting gospel material into Paul.

Diogenes the Cynic

I'm not assuming anything. It is a historical fact that crucifixion was an exclusively Roman practice. It is not plausible that the audience for these letters would not have known that. If you'd like to assert that level of ignorance in the audience, I think you need to support it.

Just to be clear, do you think that the author of 1Thess 2:14-15 literally expected his audience to believe that the Jews themselves killed Jesus? Why have them use a Roman method instead of a "Jewish" method, such as stoning or throwing from a height?

If you really think that was an inceptive claim of the Jesus myth (that the Jews themselves crucified Jesus), then why did it backtrack and blame the Romans in the Gospels?

aa5874

No, No, No!!! You make ASSUMPTIONS from Silence. HJers accuse other people of making arguments from Silence and you are blatantly engaged in assumptions WITHOUT a shred of evidence.

There is no evidence whatsoever that any actual church before c 70 CE did receive a Pauline letter so your assumptions are WORTHLESS.

We are doing history not fabricating inventions from imagination.

The Pauline writings do NOT state that the Romans killed Jesus.

Toto

Alexander_Jannaeus

spin

You've already answered this last question with your eisegesis. Paul didn't really mean that the Jews killed Jesus. He meant that the Romans killed Jesus and the Romans just did the Jews' bidding.

Diogenes the Cynic

That's the only historically plausible way to read it.

Crucifixion was exclusively Roman, yes or no?

spin

The Persians did it; the Greeks did it; the Carthaginians did it; the Jews did it (including Shimon ben Shetai); and the Romans did it. When does Paul say that Jesus died?

Diogenes the Cynic

Janneaus is characterized by Josephus as a grotesque anomaly and a tyrant. In point of fact, crucifixion was against Jewish law.

The other examples above - Greeks, Persians, etc. are anachronistic relative to Paul's audience, so they're off point.

As to when Paul thinks Jesus was crucified, well it would have to have been in the life times of the apostles since Paul thinks they saw Jesus three days after the resurrection.

aa5874

Again, the past is NOT reconstructed by what you BELIEVE is plausible. The Pauline writings do NOT state that the Romans killed Jesus.

It is NOT what you believe it is what the Pauline writings state.

You cannot dictate history when you have NOT established the veracity, historical accuracy and date of composition of the Pauline writings.

You are NOT doing history--you are Speculating and inventing stories from your imagination.

You need to understand that your assumptions from Silence have been EXPOSED. You need Credible data to do history.

spin

You didn't answer my question regarding when Paul said Jesus was crucified. Until you do, all claims of anachronism are mute.