Freethought & Rationalism Archive

knotted paragon · 01-15-2008, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perm

[...] Right, so I'll repeat my earlier question. What, exactly, is your point in this thread again? You do realize there are tomes of theological debate regarding these topics? Do you have the definitive answers to solve this debate? [...]

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

Just get a large, more in-depth Bible with a dictionary in the back, look up "Hell," then get referred to the word "Hades" and see what it says.

What the hell are you trying to argue in this thread?

That the common English translation of biblical hell is misleading? Is not referring to eternity? Is not indicative of true christians^TM?

You didn't address any of substantial points; you just refer people to a biblical dictionary reference.

What?

itsamysteryhuh · 01-16-2008, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knotted paragon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perm

[...] Right, so I'll repeat my earlier question. What, exactly, is your point in this thread again? You do realize there are tomes of theological debate regarding these topics? Do you have the definitive answers to solve this debate? [...]

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

Just get a large, more in-depth Bible with a dictionary in the back, look up "Hell," then get referred to the word "Hades" and see what it says.

What the hell are you trying to argue in this thread?

That the common English translation of biblical hell is misleading? Is not referring to eternity? Is not indicative of true christians^TM?

You didn't address any of substantial points; you just refer people to a biblical dictionary reference.

What?

The OP addressed the points necessary, but apparently they were missed (re: the reason for the Biblical dictionary reference).

Your reference to "true Christians" is nothing more than an attempt at ridicule. Your point? In short, "if" you read what it really says (dig deeper than just the surface text), then you get it; "if" you don't read what it really says, you don't get it.

However, what do you care "if" you don't believe the Bible in the first place? Hmmm? You just bored or something?

knotted paragon · 01-16-2008, 04:10 AM

but, but, but, it's...

Those ideas have been kicked aboot around here for - literally - years, its.

Here's an example from DtC two years ago.

But one can never really be sure if true christians^TM are arguing for or against - they tend to pick whichever view supports what they're spewing right then.

<watching out for that pesky surface text>

01-16-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perm

Oh so I will suffer an eternal death in the lake of fire. What was your original point in this thread again? Something about how inhumane the common vernacular for hell to be?

No, there is no evidence of this. At least, no more than there is evidence for any of the other religions before or after your bible was written.

This is called an argument from incredulity. It's a logical fallacy. You can start to read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

It's a logical fallacy because you "personally feel" there "must be something more." That's a completely vacuous statement and an unsupported assertion. You can "feel" that little green men are going to take you away to Mars in your sleep tonight, that does not make it so.. nor does it make it any more likely to be so in the future.

To paraphrase your statement above: "I have my own feelings about how the world works, and the bible fits my preconceived world view." It is quite another issue to then apply your imagination to my reality.

Oh boy, here we go. Just a friendly suggestion: you might want to do at least a little bit of research before you make a complete fool of yourself on an infidel's forum. What you just proposed was Pascal's wager, which has been refuted dozens of ways.. maybe hundreds.

You can read more about Pascal's wager here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

You can read one of the refutations of Pascal's wager here: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...er/heaven.html

If you care to prove yourself wrong even further, feel free to Google "Pascal's Wager refutation," though if you've managed to keep yourself ignorant of any views but your own up to this point, I have no reason to believe you'll go about diligently researching why you're completely wrong.

Indeed. Rest assured that my reasons are evidence, or lack thereof, of any supernatural deity. My mind is open though, so feel free to provide some.

Right, so I'll repeat my earlier question. What, exactly, is your point in this thread again? You do realize there are tomes of theological debate regarding these topics? Do you have the definitive answers to solve this debate? I think not. Furthermore, you'll confuse and scare your fellow Christians by letting them in on the fact that there is no evidence for any of this, your best bet is just to reiterate "burned to death for an eternity in a lake of fire" over and over. It's worked for nearly 2 millennium, why stop now?

Just get a large, more in-depth Bible with a dictionary in the back, look up "Hell," then get referred to the word "Hades" and see what it says.

How does this answer any of the questions I posed?

itsamysteryhuh · 01-16-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knotted paragon

But one can never really be sure if true christians^TM are arguing for or against - they tend to pick whichever view supports what they're spewing right then.

You can be more sure "if" you do more than just skim the surface of the text.

Just as another example, look at the word "torment."

*Torment - n. - 1. Great physical pain (ie, Her broken hip caused her a fair amount of torment over a couple of months), 2. Mental anguish (ie, Your constant whining causes torment for your parents), 3. A source of harassment, annoyance, or pain (ie, Katie often wondered why Joe would put her through the torment of embarrassing her at company meetings).

*Only the noun definitions are above since "torment" generally appears as a noun in the Bible.

01-17-2008, 07:05 AM

So if I can summarize your position: Make sure you get a dictionary before reading the bible so you can determine exactly how immoral and torturous the Christian god is?

spin · 01-17-2008, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by knotted paragon

But one can never really be sure if true christians^TM are arguing for or against - they tend to pick whichever view supports what they're spewing right then.

You can be more sure "if" you do more than just skim the surface of the text.

Just as another example, look at the word "torment."

*Torment - n. - 1. Great physical pain (ie, Her broken hip caused her a fair amount of torment over a couple of months), 2. Mental anguish (ie, Your constant whining causes torment for your parents), 3. A source of harassment, annoyance, or pain (ie, Katie often wondered why Joe would put her through the torment of embarrassing her at company meetings).

It is a joke to try to understand a text translated into English from an English dictionary.

The rich man is tormented by the flame, a physical stimulus for the pain. He seeks a little physical relief for his tongue requesting water to cool it. We certainly aren't dealing with mental anguish or harassment, are we? We are left with the physical pain.

Here is a simple linguistic rule: Words often have more than one meaning, though usually one is more frequent than others. This meaning is what you would normally think of when dealing with the word without too many indications from context. To argue for a less frequent meaning one has to show contextual clues to opt for the less frequent meaning.

In this case, not only are the contextual clues missing, but there are contextual indications which support the usual meaning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

*Only the noun definitions are above since "torment" generally appears as a noun in the Bible.

That's really useful when we are dealing with a verb, odunaw.

When you deal with language, try to deal with the right one and with suitable tools.

spin

itsamysteryhuh · 01-17-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

That's really useful when we are dealing with a verb, odunaw.

Care to elaborate, spin... especially since I was referring to the noun usage of "torment" in the Bible?

Perm, how do you feel about the serial killer who is eventually caught, convicted, and sentenced to death by electrocution? Is that a just punishment even though it is an inhumane one? Should the executioner instead cut off his/her arms and let him slowly bleed to death (since his arms were used to commit the crimes)? Dead is dead (re: second death), and apparently the "lake of fire" is the means necessary to achieve the second death.

spin · 01-17-2008, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

That's really useful when we are dealing with a verb, odunaw.

Care to elaborate, spin... especially since I was referring to the noun usage of "torment" in the Bible?

Lk 16:24. An example I gave earlier and one knotted paragon linked to as elucidated by DtC.

spin

Johnny Skeptic · 01-17-2008, 09:33 AM

Message to itsamysteryhuh: What evidence do you have that Jews were held captive in Egypt, and that the Exodus occurred?

If the Ten Plagues occured, that would have been the end of Egypt as a major power in the Middle East. As history shows, that did not happen. If the Ten Plagues occurred, there would have been hundreds of thousands if not millions of surviving eyewitnesses, including thousands of traveller and traders. Those traveller and traders would have returned to their countries and told many people about the Ten Plagues. News of the Ten Plagues would quickly have spread all over the civilized world. Many historians would have recorded the events. It is much too convenient that out of all of the historical records in the entire world, the only suriviving records are found in the Bible. Are you aware that claimants in court trials are not allowed to corroborate their own testimonies?

How do you account for the fact that there is not one single historical record where a skeptic wrote that he saw Jesus perform miracles, but rejected him?

If the God of the Bible exists, he would have made certain that lots of skeptic sources verified Biblical claims, thereby discouraging dissent instead of inviting dissent.

01-16-2008, 04:10 AM	#53
knotted paragon Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Korea Posts: 572	deeper than surface text... but, but, but, it's... Those ideas have been kicked aboot around here for - literally - years, its. Here's an example from DtC two years ago. But one can never really be sure if true christians^TM are arguing for or against - they tend to pick whichever view supports what they're spewing right then. <watching out for that pesky surface text>

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01-17-2008, 07:05 AM	#56
Perm Guest Posts: n/a	So if I can summarize your position: Make sure you get a dictionary before reading the bible so you can determine exactly how immoral and torturous the Christian god is?

01-17-2008, 09:33 AM	#60
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to itsamysteryhuh: What evidence do you have that Jews were held captive in Egypt, and that the Exodus occurred? If the Ten Plagues occured, that would have been the end of Egypt as a major power in the Middle East. As history shows, that did not happen. If the Ten Plagues occurred, there would have been hundreds of thousands if not millions of surviving eyewitnesses, including thousands of traveller and traders. Those traveller and traders would have returned to their countries and told many people about the Ten Plagues. News of the Ten Plagues would quickly have spread all over the civilized world. Many historians would have recorded the events. It is much too convenient that out of all of the historical records in the entire world, the only suriviving records are found in the Bible. Are you aware that claimants in court trials are not allowed to corroborate their own testimonies? How do you account for the fact that there is not one single historical record where a skeptic wrote that he saw Jesus perform miracles, but rejected him? If the God of the Bible exists, he would have made certain that lots of skeptic sources verified Biblical claims, thereby discouraging dissent instead of inviting dissent.

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