Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 12-29-2011, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

What does Justin know about the concept of apostolic succession from "Peter"as part of the so-called Christian tradition of his alleged period in the mid-second century??

It is of extreme interest to notice Justin Martyr did NOT mention any Bishops of the Church nor did he even mention the name of the Bishop of his region.

Justin Martyr mentioned that each church had a President which is also CONFIRMED by Lucian in the 2nd century in "Death of Peregrine".

"First Apology"

Quote:

....And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen...

"Death of Peregrine" attributed to Lucian

Quote:

It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed. I can tell you, he pretty soon convinced them of his superiority; prophet, elder, ruler of the Synagogue--he was everything at once; expounded their books, commented on them, wrote books himself.

They took him for a God, accepted his laws, and declared him their president.....

Based on Justin Martyr and Lucian there was NO system of Bishops of ENTIRE Cities in the mid 2nd century.

Duvduv · 12-29-2011, 09:20 AM

The lamb atones for individuals in the Temple ritual. That's what I was referring to. There is no tradition in Judaism of a lamb taking away the sins of everyone outside of Yom Kippur and especially of anyone of future generations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maklelan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Individual offerings can atone for individuals. But the atonement of the public is only through the Yom Kippur sacrifice, and there is certainly no atonement for future generations.

But this is not the lamb of just any individual, it is "the lamb of God." Additionally, Christ is said to take upon himself all the sins of the world to atone for them. The metaphor certainly takes on more symbolism than the sterile notion of a lamb as a sin offering, but it's not a misuse of the lamb imagery, nor must John's comments be lashed to the concept of the Day of Atonement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

But anyway it is a goat. Justin's metaphor about the spits being the crucifix, etc. is very creative however, but GJohn doesn't share it.

There are many metaphors they do not share.

Duvduv · 12-29-2011, 09:21 AM

So where does that leave us with a trend of "Christianity" with no apostolic tradition? Of course many "heretical" trends did not have apostolic succession, but Justin is not deemed a heretic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

What does Justin know about the concept of apostolic succession from "Peter"as part of the so-called Christian tradition of his alleged period in the mid-second century??

It is of extreme interest to notice Justin Martyr did NOT mention any Bishops of the Church nor did he even mention the name of the Bishop of his region.

Justin Martyr mentioned that each church had a President which is also CONFIRMED by Lucian in the 2nd century in "Death of Peregrine".

"First Apology"

"Death of Peregrine" attributed to Lucian

Quote:

It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed. I can tell you, he pretty soon convinced them of his superiority; prophet, elder, ruler of the Synagogue--he was everything at once; expounded their books, commented on them, wrote books himself.

They took him for a God, accepted his laws, and declared him their president.....

Based on Justin Martyr and Lucian there was NO system of Bishops of ENTIRE Cities in the mid 2nd century.

Maklelan · 12-29-2011, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The lamb atones for individuals in the Temple ritual.

And, of course, Christianity viewed the sacrificial imagery at taking place on a spiritual plane. Hebrews deals quite a bit with the notion of Christ's sacrifice in a temple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

That's what I was referring to. There is no tradition in Judaism of a lamb taking away the sins of everyone outside of Yom Kippur and especially of anyone of future generations.

Of course not. The New Testament viewed the lamb and the sacrifice typologically. The metaphor did not unilaterally correspond.

Maklelan · 12-29-2011, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is of extreme interest to notice Justin Martyr did NOT mention any Bishops of the Church nor did he even mention the name of the Bishop of his region.

Oh, Gosh. Did he mention Philo? No? I guess Philo didn't exist. Did he mention the emperors of Rome by name? I guess whichever ones he didn't mention didn't really exist. What about the American continents? Did he mention them by name? Perhaps they sprung up immediately after Justin Martyr. What about the rest of the solar system? How old is our universe?!?

Duvduv · 12-29-2011, 09:30 AM

Well, Hebrews has nothing to do with the other epistles. It sees its Christ not as indwelling spirit of salvation but as the celestial priest in the celestial temple. But that has nothing to do with the mistaken metaphor in GJohn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maklelan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The lamb atones for individuals in the Temple ritual.

And, of course, Christianity viewed the sacrificial imagery at taking place on a spiritual plane. Hebrews deals quite a bit with the notion of Christ's sacrifice in a temple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

That's what I was referring to. There is no tradition in Judaism of a lamb taking away the sins of everyone outside of Yom Kippur and especially of anyone of future generations.

Of course not. The New Testament viewed the lamb and the sacrifice typologically. The metaphor did not unilaterally correspond.

Maklelan · 12-29-2011, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Well, Hebrews has nothing to do with the other epistles.

It shows the general typological trend at the end of the first century and the beginning of the second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It sees its Christ not as indwelling spirit of salvation but as the celestial priest in the celestial temple. But that has nothing to do with the mistaken metaphor in GJohn.

I still don't see why you need to insist it is a mistake when it clearly just expands on an accurate bit of sacrificial imagery.

Duvduv · 12-29-2011, 10:38 AM

Gevalt (!!) [A Yiddish expression for "Oy Vey"].....
more responses from the Office of Apologetics!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maklelan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Well, Hebrews has nothing to do with the other epistles.

It shows the general typological trend at the end of the first century and the beginning of the second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It sees its Christ not as indwelling spirit of salvation but as the celestial priest in the celestial temple. But that has nothing to do with the mistaken metaphor in GJohn.

I still don't see why you need to insist it is a mistake when it clearly just expands on an accurate bit of sacrificial imagery.

Maklelan · 12-29-2011, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Gevalt (!!) [A Yiddish expression for "Oy Vey"].....
more responses from the Office of Apologetics!!!

And do you think this bit of rhetoric sufficiently addresses my position?

Duvduv · 12-29-2011, 12:05 PM

For right now, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maklelan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Gevalt (!!) [A Yiddish expression for "Oy Vey"].....
more responses from the Office of Apologetics!!!

And do you think this bit of rhetoric sufficiently addresses my position?

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