Godless Wonder

Tomorrow is Sunday. The last 3 or 4 Sundays, some Jehovah's Witnesses have been coming by at around lunchtime. They give me a tract to read, typically. I've debated them for 30 minutes at a time, though the debates aren't really that good so far. What I mean by that is that it's taken me awhile just to sort out exactly what it is they believe and what they don't believe. For example, it appears they believe that the earth is millions of years old. But they think that the theory of evolution has "lots of holes." (I told them to look at talkorigins.org). Don't know if they did.

So . . . seeing as how they're likely coming again tomorrow, what are some arguments that will make them think?

I've been viewing Biblical Errancy this last week, which is chock full of Biblical contradictions, but I can't memorize the whole thing . . . I'm wondering if anyone has had success with specific arguments, specific contradictions that work against the specific beliefs of JW's. That Biblical Errancy site has got me inspired to do more than just send them packing, I want to try to make them think. So help me out.

dantonac

There are unlikely to be any arguments that will make them think.

I have debated JWs before and read several books about them as well as lots of literature from them to understand what they believe.

What they believe isn't terribly important.

How they are trained to think is.

First, a former JW who leaves the organization is an apostate and they will not listen to anything they have to say. I forget the name of the guy, but basically one of the Watchtower big wigs left and wrote a book about how the whole thing is a sham. I mentioned this to the Jws coming over and they stated they wouldn't read it.

Next I had some papers I had written at the time looking at the teaching of their organization. Specifically I cited the false predictions of Christ's quoting and citing their own publications. They took it and said they would read it and then moved onto their rehearsed pitch.

What I am trying to say is they won't hear anything you say. They are quite literally programmed with the technique to convert you and every argument you make is simply the voice of satan who needs to be overcome, not listened to.

Also consider that a JW, if their family is also in the organization has to shun them if they leave the faith.

Likely you are dealing with years of programming and a massive amount of fear associated with leaving the faith. Best thing I can suggest is a brief paper outlining the most inarguable errors/falsehoods in the bible and leave it with them.

Maybe they will read it one day, maybe they won't.

A good thing to hit them with if you are bible savvy is their belief that blood transfusions are wrong. This insane doctrine is based upon an OT verse that forbids the eating of blood. They equate blood transfusions as eating that bypasses the mouth. The purpose of the prohibition is health/diet and is null and void according to the NT.

Anyway I don't talk with the JWs anymore, I have found it a lost cause, hope you have better luck.

dantonac

Oh, regarding biblical errors, be careful with that one. The JWs use the New World Translation which was written by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. They don't admit that they wrote their own version and often claim it was done by credible scholars. I don't have the citations handy, but it was actually written by the Watchtower directors and not a single one of them has any knowledge of the original languages.

What they did was take the King James version and change the parts they didn't like to suit their theololgy.

Many of the errors in other translations will still be there, but some may not be.

The basic way they differ from other Christian sects is they don't believe the doctrine of the Trinity, believe the Holy Spirit is a force, not a being and Jesus wasn't God, but rather was God's foremost prophet. In that sense they can be seen as strict monotheists. They don't call the diety God either, but call him Jehovah, hence their name.

[edit to add] JWs don't look for smart people, they look for emotionally needy/wounded people. They are trained to do this. Not explicitly, but it is what the end result is. If you offer them strong, rational argument they won't come see you more than a few times and then write you off. If they come back Sunday and you want to take some time to prepare your best stuff then give them some reason to hope enough in your enslavement/conversion to come back. Tell them that the state of the world seems scary to you and you wish there was a way to know everything would be OK right before they leave.

Naked Ape

If you grow tired of this debate before they do and you find yourself looking for JW repellant: go to the red cross, donate blood and pick up one of the car window decals that says "Blood Donor". With this sticker on your window in your front door, those pesky varmints won't even knock.
There was a kingdom hall at the end of the next block where I grew up. This works better than crosses and garlic for vampires!

Cheers,

NAked Ape

Fr8monkey

You can do this: Put up a "Tresspassers will be shot on sight" sign up and put a chalk outline on your drive with a few "Watchtower" magazines around. Don't know if it would work; but it would be worth a laugh or two.

Or you can try the following conversation:

"So, you want me to convert. If I don't convert, I will be damned when I die?"
JW: "Yes, that's right. Only those who believe will be with God after he ends the world."
"But what if I live a good and righteous life. Won't he judge me on my merits as a good person?"
JW: "No. You must believe, or you cannot be with God."
"What about people who are never told about God? Will they be damned because they never had the opportunity to convert?"
JW: "No, God will judge those people on how they lived their lives."
"So, by going around telling people about God, you yourself are directly responsible for them being damned. If you had never offered me the chance to convert, God would judge me solely on how I live my life, but now I am going to be damned because of you."


I got that from this link. There are other things to do there too.

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/JW.html

Jabu Khan

Ask them why it is that god's plan cannot be summarized sense it is so clearly mapped out in the bable. Perhaps leaving out all that unneeded history and stories would allow people to focus on the message.Now that they have corected the mistranslations perhaps they could streamline it a bit.

Ask them why they haven't started forming an independent theocray yet. They got a long ways to go to develop nuclear arms and weapons of mass destruction. I mean if they have to fight the rest of the world in the name of god they really got their work cut out for them. After all time is of the essence. The end times started in 1917 I believe who knows how long we have left.

Ask them why they try to recruit so many old people and drug addicts. What they really need is a supreme military strategist and some navy seals or something.

Tharmas

I challenge this statement, not that I know anything specifically about JW history, but for the following reason.

Many years ago when I was a starving graduate student, I had need of a interlinear Greek-English New Testament. I was told I could buy one from the JWs for a quarter. So, the next time a couple knocked on my door, I asked for one. They told me they would have to order it.

So I put up with them coming by every week for a month or so and I got my book. I still have it. It�s got the Greek in one column, a literal word-for-word translation in the next, and a smooth translation in the third. There are also lots of notes.

Now I won�t vouch for the level of scholarship, but it looks to be a tad better than just cutting and pasting from the KJV. I can tell you that at least the Greek is real Greek.

suitsusir

I prefer Billy Connolly's method. Take a deep breath and shout at the top of your voice........FUCK OFF!

blindwatchmaker

VERY VERY funny!

dantonac

I have never seen this. The NWT that I have seen has no greek in it, just the straight text.

In any event I found a link that both defends and attacks the scholarship. You can evaluate for yourself if you wish:



NWT criticism