freigeister

Eusebius also has it (H. E., Bk. X, Chap. 5).

Alter

I didn't say they were atheists, but that they were deists. Let's look at some of the most influential of the founders:

George Washington: President, pro-separation, accepts atheists, Deist or agnostic by word, nominally religious for appearance's sake. Dedicated Freemason, and after Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, (a personal friend), replied to a Dr. Wilson when questioned about Washington's religion, "Sir, Washington was a Deist." Quotes on his Christianity often comes from a book by Mason Weems who calls him a devouty Christian, yet that conflicts with Washington's own notes which say he rarely attended.

John Adams: President, Deist-influenced: "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

Thomas Jefferson: President, Deist or agnostic: "Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

James Madison: President, Deist: “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise�?

James Wilson: Chief Justice of USSC, Deist

Benjamin Franklin: Signer of both DOI and AOC, Deist or agnostic

Thomas Paine: Pamphleteer of the Revolution, Deist or agnostic

Ethan Allen: leader of Green Mountain Boys, Deist

Stephen Hopkins: signer of DOI, Deist

George Wythe: signer of DOI, Deist-influenced

Samuel Adams: religious, believed in "mutual toleration" of religions

John Hancock: influential signer, religious

John Witherspoon: signer, religious

Roger Sherman: signer, religious

Patrick Henry: revolutionary, religious, wanted US to be a Christian nation

Benjamin Rush: signer, religious

Samuel Huntington: signer, religious

Philip Livingston: signer, religious

Alexander Hamilton: signer of constitution, secretary of Treasury, religious

John Jay: Chief Justice of USSC, religious

Those are the most influential names I can think of. I'm sure you can add a few more influential religious folks, but you're still left with a whole bunch of Deists, other religious affiliations notwithstanding. Heck, if you include a few later folks, our first 6 presidents were ALL Deists or Deist-leaning!!

Buffman

(Just some opinions, info and links related to accurate history.)

The capability of today's researchers to determine fact from fiction has improved just over the last few decades. However, the lack of original source materials leaves this enterprise open to interpretive criticisms that may never be satisfactorily resolved. It also makes manifest the general necessity to obtain a measure of insight into the character and motivations of the researchers. This is particularly important when using quotes from secondary sources in order to establish interpretive conclusions. (As most of the members in this forum already know, a so-called colonial America historian like David Barton can not be used as a secondary source without a thorough evaluation of his sources...which more often than not are Christian apologists and manipulators of past American history.)

http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/ess...5forgeries.htm

(Extracts)
The more clever the forgery, the more impact it has, and a few notable forgeries have had a colossal effect on the events of the world.

One of the more influential forgeries of the world, referred to as the “Donation of Constantine,�? came to light around the 8th century A.D. This document was an alleged proclamation made by the Roman Emperor Constantine, supposedly made in 324 A.D. In this document, Constantine demonstrated his gratitude for being baptized by the Bishop of Rome, Sylvester, by granting him and his successors the status of “universal pope,�? as well as “the city of Rome and all the provinces, districts and cities of Italy or of the western regions.�? The “discovery�? of this document helped firmly establish the control of the Pope over Rome and all of the Churches of Western Europe.
(End extracts)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm

(Extract)(My bold)
The reader cannot always trust the translators. Bibles contain many inaccuracies and errors. Some appear to be intentional.
(End extract)

http://www.bible.ca/history-ignatius...ries-250AD.htm

http://www.polyamory.org/~howard/Hyp...y-sources.html

(Extract)(My bold)
Socrates [Scholasticus] was a Christian author, while those dealt with above were pagan. For this reason, this work is much better preserved than that summarised earlier. (This is not really surprising; after all the Christians "won"!)
(End extract)

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/

Buffman

Better reread your post # 7 again. You made claims that can not be supported by the accurate historical evidence. That is why I commented on your post and provided you with what I did.

We know that every founding father, even Thomas Paine, professed a belief in a supernatural god. We know that a handful (not "half") of some of the most influential did not believe in organized religions. We also know that these men were some of America's most educated, worldly and politically astute. We also know that they were all exposed to the philosophies of the "Enlightenment." We also know that they were viewed as the American aristocracy and initially represented many financial interests. They were well aware that they did not, initially, represent the majority of the American public. They were also well aware that unless they could rally that American public to support Independence, then the British would hand them their butts, and confiscate all the wealth, power and prestige they had amassed. That is what makes the DoI such a meaningful document. It had to condemn the King while enlisting the support of the American masses...who had little more than their lives to give to a belief in independence.

I still don't know why you cited Abigail Adams.

Alter

"approximately half were Deists or Agnostics or anti-religion"

...which I showed


I put together a list of 20 of the most influential (you could likely add some to the list), 10 of these were Deists or had such strong Deist leanings that it upset the religious. 10 is not a handful, and it *is* half of 20.

I don't know if there's some way to rate the level of "influence" various founding fathers had. Of course, we can say that Thomas Jefferson was for more influential than, say, Ceasar Rodney. But there is no absolute scale. If there were, you'd see that although the vast majority of the FF's were Christian, the most influential ones included quite a few Deists or those with Deist beliefs in spite of membership in other churches.

...and yet it didn't mention God or Jesus, even though the American masses beleived in such concepts, hmmm...


Um, neither do I. You got me there. It had been such a long time since I compiled the list that I forgot who was on it.

Buffman

Thank you. If I had more time or a greater interest in accurate religious history, I would probably compare each of the writings and attempt to determine when and where each was authored.

Did you have an opportunity to review the following?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05617b.htm

(Extracts)(My bold)
Gibbon's celebrated sneer, about a writer "who indirectly confesses that he has related whatever might redound to the glory, and that he has suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace, of religion", can be sufficiently met by referring to the passages (H. E., VIII, ii; Mart. Pal. c. 12) on which it is based.

That he knows very little about Tertullian or St. Cyprian is due, no doubt, to his scant knowledge of Latin.
(End extracts)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05616a.htm

(I rather suspect that Eusebius was interested in making a Christian hero out of Constantine.)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...nstantine.html

freigeister

While I don't generally make a practice of helping sceptics, I will point out that Seeck denied the historicity of the Edict (Seeck's postion is cited by Bury in his appendix to his edition of Gibbon's Decline and Fall, available here)


Evidently Seeck found that there was confusion between a number of edicts, especially with regard to the deathbed repentance of Galerius in 311 see here.

It seems obvious that even from a sceptical point of view there is enough going on here to be of interest to students of church-state relations.

cyranodrozd

I am surprised that no one even mentioned the brief attempt by a Unitarian King to establish religious freedom/separation of church and state approximately 400 years ago in Transylvania.

"King John Sigismund of Transylvania, the only Unitarian king in history, issued an edict of religious toleration that permitted the people of his kingdom to follow whatever religion they wished. In 16th Century Europe, torn by religious warfare, this liberty, this separation of state from church, was absolutely unique. So even then, as Unitarian belief was emerging from the cauldron of the Reformation, we find support among our ancestors for religious freedom." -from the UUA website.

I find that Unitarians are always mentioning this.

Toto

Religious freedom is not the same thing as church state separation. From here

Buffman

Forgive me, but you are using descriptive adjectives without providing clear definitions of what you mean. Several founders were not supporters of organized religions. Is that what you mean by "anti-religious?" Which ones were Agnostics? If I wished, I could list just those who professed Deism and claim that they were the most significant founders. (100% Deists.) You made no mention of "your" top 20 Founders prior to this post. May I recommend that you review the following:

http://candst.tripod.com/founder1.htm

http://candst.tripod.com/orthodox.htm

http://candst.tripod.com/nordland.htm

If you have reviewed the first URL above, you will note 32 names and the justifications for their selection. However, if you read the introductory paragraphs, you will note that the list of Founders is rather extensive. If we consider only those who signed the DoI, that number would be 56. If we add the Framing Fathers of 1787, you could easily add an additional 39 (which excludes eight who had signed the DoI) to the total. Neither list contains Thomas Paine nor Ethan Allen....nor Abigail Adams.

First, when discussing "influence," one most define what they mean by it. Again, I call attention to the yeoman effort by Jim Allison to provide a foundation for that meaning. His paragraph about Jefferson's contributions is particularly noteworthy.

This is a very significant point that forces the radical religious right to nit-pick the Constitution and escape back to the DoI as the founding document of the Constitution....and the Bible as the founding document of the DoI.

Been there! Done that...possibly right within this post. However, that is why I attempt to find the most accurate, verifiable, history I can...before posting to the world. :thumbs: