Vorkosigan

No, for you told us that both of them had their public careers begin in Gaul/Galilee. Carotta wrote, which YOU posted:

• B) JESUS’ LIFE IS CONGRUENT TO THE LIFE OF CAESAR.
  
  Both Julius Caesar and Jesus began their careers in northern countries: Caesar in Gaul, Jesus in Galilee;

I think I am through with this too....it's pretty clear, upon re-reading my comments, that Carotta is crap.

Vorkosigan

Amaleq13

I agree.

spin

Oh, how harsh, Vork.... Harsh, but true.

Toto

The name Longinus is speculated to be a Latinization of the Greek longche meaning spear. It was not an uncommon name. Longinus' spear became part of the legend of the Holy Grail, and the legends around him incorporated some Norse mythology, which is off topic but more interesting than Carotta.

Juliana

It might be more interesting to you what is speculated. This is what Carotta says about the spear :

[...]Thus we conclude that the passage in John is probably interpolated—the other Evangelists know nothing about it—however the reason to search for a corresponding passage was pre-existent: they had stabbed him. That we may regard as a certainty.

An indirect proof that John is speaking the truth here is brought to us by an apocryphon, which means a scripture not accepted into the canon, the so-called Gospel of Nicodemus, also known as the Acts of Pilate. There it is said that the soldier who perforated his side with a lance was named Longinus.[112]

Theologians speculate here that the name Longinus may have been invented: because lance in Greek is lonchê, the soldier was consequently named Longinus: in this they break the rules of the art. For ‘Longinus’ is a proper name, ‘lance’ a common term; the one rare and personal, the other one universally known. Experts speak of a lectio difficilior and a lectio facilior—by this they mean that in the process of tradition the easier word can replace the more difficult one: never the other way round. Thus Longinus is certain, and the pointed weapon was associated with his name and so became a lance. But the pointed weapon could have been of a different kind.

From where did John take the stab in the chest of Jesus? It can only have happened at his capture, where there was a violent engagement and the naked sword was drawn:

‘…and kissed him. And they laid their hands on him, and took him. And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.’[113]

We are accustomed to hearing sword used here and not dagger, because in the King James Version it was translated this way. But Mark does not say sword, but machaira, which primarily means knife, then dagger, or at most a short sword—like, for example, the Roman gladius.

That murderers were involved in the so-called arrest of Jesus is revealed by Mark’s choice of words in the next verse:

‘And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me?’[114]

Luther translates: ‘…as against a murderer’. We can be confident that a gang went wild with daggers and other weapons, and indeed so wild that they wounded each other in the face. The arrest of Jesus seems to have been more murderous than it looks at first glance. Due to the fact that Jesus does not speak a word after the arrest and is later depicted with an open chest-wound, untypical for a crucified one, it is reasonable to assume that he was murdered at this point and that his so-called arrest was actually his capture, his entrapment, and—as Mark’s choice of words indicates—his assassination.

John could have easily borrowed the stab in the side of Jesus from here and have made use of it at the descent from the cross. [...]

spin

Toto, you got what you deserved. :rolling:

Toto

A certainty? How can anything be a certainty? And why would it be interpolated, as opposed to the original work of John?

How can a later fanciful sort of fiction validate an earlier work of fiction??

Longinus was not a rare name as far as I can tell. I easily found 2 references to Greek scholars of that name.

But your conclusion that Longinus must have been the more difficult and therefore the original misuses the lectio difficilior/facilior logic. We do not have two different readings, one difficult and one easy. We have the name Longinus supplied to an earlier story that involves a spear.

That's it for me. I could accept that there might be some literary influence between the death of Caesar and the story of Jesus, but I don't find your methods very convincing. :wave:

Juliana

It didn't say Longinus was a 'rare name'...
If you don't find Carotta's methods convincing it might very well be due to your not being an expert in the methodological problems involved.
Anyway, Toto :wave:

Amaleq13

"For ‘Longinus’ is a proper name, ‘lance’ a common term; the one rare and personal, the other one universally known." (emphasis added)

:huh:

Lack of expertise didn't prevent you from being convinced so there must be another reason. :rolling:

Juliana

I understand this as saying that the proper name Longinus is rare compared to the common term lance. And I don't think Longinus was a very frequent personal name either.


Well, we have now seen that the moderators and some veterans show a great, almost religious zeal - amazingly for an Infidel's Forum - in refusing to look at the abundace of evidence proving that the historical Jesus was Caesar. Maybe some other members are more interested or less afraid and actually read the work so that one could start discussing much more interesting questions like:
What does this mean for Christianity and religions in general? Is this the end of each and all of them? How will this discovery once recognized affect the relationship between the major religions especially Christianity and Islam which is a sibling of Christianity (Carotta has interesting thesis on that also). And all kinds of ofther questions concerning theology, history(iography), etc.
However, the bases for such a discussing is an interest in the matter and having read the book. Btw, to make that clear once and for all, the reason the book is not completely online yet is only because the author isn't allowed to do it at the moment due to contract with the publisher. From January 06 on the whole book will be online so everybody can read it for free.